K-Series Starting - seized starter ring?

[NigeB]

Evening All,

 

I was reluctant to post, given that starter problems have been discussed extensively on these forums... but I've searched and found nothing quite like this, so I'd appreciate any thoughts / advice, or pointers to the posts I've missed! Sorry this is long, but hopefully some of the observations might help someone recognise the problem.

 

My 1.8 K-series has been unused for over 12 months due to house building and family growth, save for a start-up about 6 months ago which was trouble-free (instant fire-up; I left the engine running for about 15 mins, but went no further than my drive entrance ☹️ ).

 

Last week I went to get it ready for a service/MOT and hopefully return to more regular use now that small person No.1 is old enough to go for the odd blat.

 

At some point in the past 6 months my battery conditioner had been disconnected, and the 2 year old Banner battery is now kaput, but after reading these forums I decided to get an Ultramax replacement. Before ordering I thought I'd check that everything else was OK with the machine, hooked up one of several other batteries I have (I tried, via jump leads, (1) the 1 week-old, freshly charged 12V 30 Amp Hour Unipart 3038 battery in my lawnmower (265 amp cold-crank), (2) A 12 V 70 Ah leisure battery, and (3) jump starting from my Toyota Yaris - with the dead Banner still in, and with it removed.)

 

Dipstick oil level check is ok. I turned on the ignition, saw healthy looking lights and gauges, and heard the expected sounds (fuel pump etc). Then I hit the starter button and found that the starter motor was barely able to complete one revolution (or what sounds like one revolution). The solenoid engages and the motor turns slowly for about 3 seconds (so it's not the dreaded "K-click"), but it sounded just like the final crank-over before a battery is completely flat. Keeping my finger on the button resulted in the motor managing another painfully slow half crank after a second or two of stalling, at which point I took my finger off. Jump leads were really hot.

 

I can move the car in 5th gear by pushing, just - it feels like it did last time I bump-started, so I figured it's not a seized engine.

 

Last night, probably foolishly, I hooked up to the Yaris in the hope that this would give me reliable starting power for a few attempts. Initially the result was the same - one slow revolution, and very hot jump leads. After a few attempts it sounded like the motor was turning a little easier (still only one revolution); a few more tries and I was getting several turns. But every now and again I'd find things had returned to the barely-able-to-do-one turn situation. Nevertheless, overall the trend was towards increasing numbers of turns and increasing speed of turns, and eventually (after about an hour) I got the engine fired up. At that point, everything looked normal - engine temperature and oil pressure good, no smoke, engine sound (and smell) normal, free-reving, and with the car in gear and moving it all felt right. I left the car running for 20 mins, then turned off. When I tried to start again - same problem. Back to square one with the single, slow crank from the starter motor.

 

I've cleaned up all of the electrical connections I can find between the starter motor and the battery. I've had the starter motor off this evening; it's a Magneton. I've opened it up, and everything looks good - brushes clean and intact, solenoid working. I've run the starter on the bench, and it *looks* ok - applying power to the motor and solenoid results in the sprocket being pushed forward to the flywheel-engage position, and it spins fast (can't be quantitative, but it looks *really* fast!). As far as I could see, the starter ring looked ok - as much as I could eyeball in its current position. All a bit vague and qualitative but it's all I can do with the kit I have.

 

I re-fitted the starter motor this evening, but the result is the same.

 

As far as I can tell, it's not the under-powered solenoid issue that seems to be a common cause of the K-click; the starter motor is definitely energising and starting the motor, which is engaging and (just) turning the starter ring.

 

I'm starting to wonder if this is a problem with the starter ring itself - it seems like there could be a "tight" spot, and a region that's more free. Is this possible?

 

Any thoughts welcome. If it's the starter ring, is this a big money job to get fixed?

 

Thanks

 

Nigel

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jonathan Kay]

Were you relying on the earth from the original battery while you jumped it?

 

Jonathan

[NigeB]

Hi Jonathan

 

Thanks for responding. The way I did it was to take the jump leads from the external (Yaris/mower) battery terminals and simply connect the other end to the Banner battery terminals in the Seven (when I took the Banner out, as I did on the successful attempt, I simply screwed the terminals together and supported them with an insulating material, and attached the other end of the jump leads to these. So I'm guessing that yes, I'm using all of the original ground and positive wiring to the starter motor (I had a go at cleaning the battery connections, and also the ground which goes to the engine block).

 

Thanks

 

Nigel

[Stationary M25 Traveller]

There is a huge difference in performance for the starter motor between running on the bench and running under load on the engine. If it is failing, it wouldn't necessarily show spinning freely on the bench. Suggest taking it to somewhere that can test it under load ... and overhaul it if required.

 

When you say you cleaned the connections .... do you mean unbolted, cleaned mating faces and remade the connections ? Don't forget the earth cable from engine to chassis too.

[Roger Ford]

Are your jump leads any good? If they were getting really hot, then they must have been absorbing a significant amount of power, which wouldn't then be available to the starter. Are they copper or aluminium? If they're not copper, they're probably rubbish.

 

I wouldn't base any conclusions on trying to start via jump leads. Spend 35 quid on an Ultramax and see how that gets on.

[TomB]

Voltage drop through ignition leads, dodgy FIA key?

[NigeB]

Hi Roger, Stationary M25 Traveller,

 

Thanks for your replies. The jump leads are definitely copper, but also definitely *cheap*, so it looks like I need to get some better ones.

 

For all the connections I found, I unbolted, cleaned with wet-and-dry until I got a good fresh metal face, then wiped off with a cloth lightly dampened with white spirit. I did this on the engine block ground connection as well, but I didn't spot one going to the chassis, so there's definitely at least one which I've missed. I will go hunting tonight, and find someone who can test the motor under load. Ultramax ordered.

 

Thanks for these pointers: I'll try these over the next few nights. With a bit of luck it'll all be running in time for the wet weather to return!

 

Thanks

 

Nigel

[NigeB]

Hi Tom,

 

Sorry but revealing my ignorance here, is the FIA key the battery master switch, i.e. this?

 

http://www.caterhamparts.co.uk/product.php?id_product=4081

 

I don't have one of those fitted (yet...) - I have the standard Rover key barrel, and a red starter button fitted by Caterham.

 

Thanks

 

Nigel

 

 

[Paul Deslandes]

if the leads are getting hot then there's a lot of current going through the starter motor which looks almost like a short circuit when its stalled.

 

I would remove the plugs and try pushing it in gear to see if its any easier in case you've got some fluid in one or more of the bores, e.g. from a head gasket leak (oil or water). I don't want to be alarmist but you really don't want it to start if that proves to be the case. In any event, if it hasn't been run for a while an unloaded spin up will get oil around the engine which can only be a good thing.

 

If all that's ok and you have a voltmeter, measure the cranking voltage, either at the starter solenoid if you can get to it or the 7 side of the jump lead connection positive terminal, with negative of the meter to the engine block. If the voltage is below about 10.5 volts when cranking, assuming the source battery voltage is holding up, its a cable resistance problem. If it isn't then you need to look elsewhere.

 

Paul

 

 

[Bob L]

The chassis earth on my 1800K is directly under the coil pack to the lower side engine bay frame but they can differ!

 

[SLR No.77]

If it's been sat with a dead battery reset the ECU.

 

Stu.

[NigeB]

Hi All,

 

Positive progress tonight...

 

Bob, thanks for the pointer to the earth lead I'd missed - found it; I can get the connector off the chassis, which I've done and cleaned (both sides). Getting the other end off the engine block is defeating me at the moment.

 

Anyway, battery is on order, but tonight I tried the same setup as last night, this time with an additional lead from +ve on the battery directly to the +ve terminal on the solenoid. Result - far more heathy starter turnover followed by engine start . I took the lead off and tried again - back to the original problem. Definite correlation. So this is looking pretty much like a loss somewhere along the wiring harness from battery to starter, or (hopefully) the use of jump leads as Roger suggested.

 

I'm going to stop fiddling now until the battery arrives and I can test this out unambiguously.

 

Thanks to all of you for taking the time to respond - I really appreciate the help I've been given through this forum . I'll post again when the battery arrives and I try that out.

 

Thanks

 

Nigel

 

[Roger Ford]

Got the new battery yet? Any progress?

[NigeB]

Hi Roger,

 

Unfortunately not yet - have had to burn the midnight oil for work, and I only got around to ordering it today. Looks like my Sevening action will be limited to a soapy sponge and a hose this weekend...

 

I'll definitely be posting an update, next week when the battery arrives.

 

Thanks

 

Nigel

 

 

 

[NigeB]

PS, if you're wondering why I've ordered it today when I said I'd done it last week... I did, but then got a message to say the 20 Ah was out of stock. So I've gone for the 18 Ah instead - reports on this forum suggest it works OK.

[NigeB]

Hi All,

 

Success! New battery (Ultramax 12 V 18 Ah) arrived today so I fitted it this evening; hit the button and the car fired up instantly. 😬 Looks like you were right about cautioning against the jump lead approach Roger. I'd not appreciated quite how lossy these were. Good call!

 

Thanks again to everyone for your responses and help - much appreciated!

 

Nigel

[Roger Ford]

Good news.