Clutch release bearing - again?

[Luegonigel]

I have an 1800 K series Roadsport SV with six speed gearbox. At around 22,000 miles started to have problems getting reverse and so had clutch and release bearing changed. Now 2,000 miles later the same thing is happening. When it is cold or even after being left to stand for 15mins, getting reverse is no problem. After driving for an hour or so, pulling up and reversing to park, reverse not possible without switching engine off and starting it in gear.

Is the release bearing set too tight against the cover plate, heating up and seizing?

Not enough oil in the gearbox?

Too thin oil in the gearbox? (same from new, no idea what it is)

Any other theories?

Car only used for the road

[paul richards]

Nigel

I would suspect it may be as simple as the cable having stretched and you are not getting full travel of the clutch.

Try adjusting the cable to bring the pedal a bit higher up and try again.

What year is the car? Does it have a clutch stop? If it does, adjusting the stop will have the same effect as adjusting the cable.

It could also be the clutch release arm that is bending, but this is unlikely unless you have a dry sump with a tank in the bellhousing. (clutch release arms on these appear to be thinner and weaker and have a history of failing).

 

Whatever it is, it had better be mended for LM Classic.

Feel free to give me a ring if I can offer advice..

[Ivaan]

Do you have any preload on the clutch? The CRB is meant to stay in contact with the clutch diaphram, continuously spinning. If it's not in contact, it wears every time the clutch is engaged.

 

Clive

[Luegonigel]

Thanks chaps.

 

The kit was supplied in about 2005, registered in 2009.

There is no clutch stop.

The car is wet sump.

As well as the new bits for the clutch innards, a new cable was fitted also.

I've seen a bit about the pre-load on the CRB written in the forums but am not sure how to achieve it other than adjusted the clutch pedal up behind my left ear. How do you do it?

 

As you say the timing is not great with the LM Classic coming up.

 

I'll try the adjusting of the pedal in the first instance.

[John Vine]

Like Paul, I suspect that you're not getting the full range of clutch movement. This could simply be due to a poorly adjusted cable. But it could also be something more sinister inside the gearbox. It could also be a wrecked CRB, even after just 2000 miles, especially if there's inadequate pre-load. What did the old 22000-mile CRB look like? There's a stack of info about how to set up the required pre-load here. If you want a copy of my LF article (Word doc), Blatmail me.

 

JV

[chicken man]

Have you checked the spigot bearing in the centre of the flywheel as you may find

the gearbox main shaft is picking up on the bearing and it is not freeing itself

when you apply the clutch. I did this repair on two caterams recently

TelNo. 07949706527.

[Fishy Dave]

Actually you could say you have done this repair three times recently Philip 😬

 

The symptoms described by Nigel do sound a bit like those that yourself and Paul had.

[Luegonigel]

Link to photoshere

 

As can be seen from the photos the inner race moves in and out of the outer race by about 1.5mm on my old bearing which failed after 22,000 miles...if indeed it did as it may have been the flywheel bearing. Other photos are of the cover plate and the top of the bearing which touches the cover plate.

Strikes me as that is too much movement indicating wear inside the bearing. Does anyone have a new one to be able to compare how much movement that has.

 

What state the currently fitted bearing is in I don't know.

 

The spigot bearing wasn't checked to my knowledge.

 

I read the pre-load article with interest and had not picked it up from previous trawls of Blatchat.

 

Next run out is Sunday with 100+ classic cars so will adjust the cable before then and see how it goes.

[John Vine]

Interesting photos, Nigel. Looking at that CRB (CC's "preferred" SKF item rather than the original equipment INA one by the look of it), I'd say it showed signs of overheating and possible loss of lubricant. The contact surface appears to be discoloured and scored -- both signs of inadequate pre-load. At least it's still in one piece! I have no experience of the SKF part, but a new INA item will have no play in the bearing or carrier, and the bearing housing will be stiff to move radially across the carrier. It's designed to be centred just the once by initial clutch action, and to remain centred thereafter. That's an inherent feature of the "constant contact" design.

 

I have to say that I'm still puzzled why CC chose to drop the INA part in favour of the SKF item (perfectly serviceable though, I'm sure) rather than address the underlying problem of inadequate pre-load.

 

JV

[David aka Blue7]

Quoting Luegonigel: 

I have an 1800 K series Roadsport SV with six speed gearbox. At around 22,000 miles started to have problems getting reverse and so had clutch and release bearing changed. Now 2,000 miles later the same thing is happening. When it is cold or even after being left to stand for 15mins, getting reverse is no problem. After driving for an hour or so, pulling up and reversing to park, reverse not possible without switching engine off and starting it in gear.

 

Hi Nigel

 

I was thinking about your problem after our chat last night and from what you say the clue seems to be that it only occurs when all components are at running temperature and suggests to me that some component is overheating for whatever reason. Also all other gears can be easily selected hot or cold and it only happens in reverse, which I think has no synchromesh. I would have thought that if it was a linkage adjustment problem you would have difficulty engaging 1st gear also ... if not all forward gears? On that basis, if I had a similar problem I would try the simple solutions first:

 

1. It may be that gearbox oil level is too low or needs to be changed so I would drain the gearbox oil and refill to the correct level with replacement oil.

 

2. If I am correct in my assumption that reverse gear has no synchromesh, then when the engine is hot and you are shifting from a forward gear to reverse, try doing so by double de-clutching i.e. depress the clutch pedal, move from forward gear into neutral, release the clutch pedal then depress clutch pedal again and select reverse.

 

If this didn't work then I would book the car back into Dreadnought Garage, who replaced your clutch just last year. The problem should not have recurred in just 2000 miles so let them sort it out. It is a bit of a hassle but they are a good crew with excellent facilities and the expertise to find and rectify the problem quickly.

 

In my younger days I would have dropped the gearbox and replaced clutch, pressure plate and release bearing (again) because one or more of the components may be faulty and it would have been the quickest and cheapest solution (hopefully). Hardest part was lining up the clutch & pressure plate for the 1st motion shaft ... usually using a suitable carved old broom handle

 

One further consideration is that your 7 is envious of Lee's Toniq Fireblade and now secretly craves the freedom and liberation from a reverse gear 😬 😬

 

Hope you get good weather on Sunday ... I think the forecast is 7" snow down there ... but you can't "back out" now

 

Good luck

Blue

 

Edited by - Blue7 on 18 Apr 2012 09:52:53

[Luegonigel]

400 miles done over the weekend.

Clutch cable adjusted up before I set off meaning that the pedal was about 20 mm above the brake pedal, this means about 6mm on the cable.

Pedal too high to drive with comfortably, no difference to getting reverse.

 

Sunday adjusted padal back to normal position, had a few problems with 4 down to third and reverse.

 

At the end of the day did 110 miles from filling up on deserted roads across the Highlands, pulled up at home with everything hot, reverse worked perfect!

 

It sounds like when you move the clutch pedal half way in the bearing hits the cover plate and spins up, definitely not a traditional squealing impending failure type noise.

 

Big question is...will it need to come out before Le Mans Classic?

[paul richards]

Nigel

Sounds strange. Are you saying there is lots of play in the cable i.e. pedal goes a long way before release bearing comes in contact with the clutch and starts to work. Is there a spring or something holding the pedal up?

A pity I'm not close enough to have a look. We need you to have a fix before the LM Classic, but don't worry, I always carry a tow rope.

RAC/AA recovery in Europe is sounding like a good investment - I always take it.

[Luegonigel]

The bite point is pretty high up suggesting that the bearing is not far off contact and the extra pedal stroke doesn't do anything extra to stop the grinding getting into reverse.

 

Europe recovery - done

Wife to push - done

Spare thrust bearing and spigot - bearing ordered

[paul richards]

Nigel

My e-mail - I'm not saying it is definitely the spigot bearing - it's just a possibility. I suppose the cost of the bearing and spacer is relatively cheap and if the engine does need to come out then worth having them to hand just in case.

Good luck.

[John Vine]

Quoting Luegonigel: 

It sounds like when you move the clutch pedal half way in the bearing hits the cover plate and spins up, definitely not a traditional squealing impending failure type noise.

Hmmm... Well, it's certainly not designed to work like that. The CRB should be in constant contact with the diaphragm fingers (which is why you need pre-load). If your CRB does indeed "spin up" as you suggest, I fear its life is going to be be a short and uncomfortable one.

 

I think I'd be investigating clutch drag as a possibility. Of course, a failing CRB would be one cause of that, but there are others: damaged spigot bearing, contaminated/damaged clutch friction/pressure plate, damaged diaphragm fingers, badly adjusted cable, failing clutch fork -- and more...

 

JV