MikeMolloy Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 OK lads, stick your heads back in the sand then. Don't want to upset the status quo, eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmar Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 head not in the sand at all Fred, and not sure what you are implying really, and not sure what else exactly you are wanting from this thread... 🤔 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeMolloy Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 I am implying that you don't seem to be able to see the obvious inequity in putting a car with c.160bhp in a class with cars of > 263bhp! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlies Angel Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 We are actually a very inclusive and accomodating bunch and that is why the posts above say come along and have a chat or have a go - we dont have a regulation for every eventuality, it would be impossible to cover all the possibilities for the car. We are however a democracy and that is why no one person posting on here can give you a straight forward answer - if your car is an anomoly it would be treated as one and the members of the speed forum would vote accordingly. It is a testament to the fairness of this system that the speeds listed above are as equal across the classes as they are - but if you dont join in you'll never find out 😔 PS We upset the status quo every year - that is exactly how the series has evolved so successfully 😶🌫️ Edited by - Leg on 6 Jun 2012 14:16:04 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmar Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 Currently you wouldn't be up against these cars anyway so not sure what your problem is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeMolloy Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 I seem to be going round in circles here.... One last time: Your championship regs state a reference max. power of 160bhp for Class 3, and 190bhp for Class 4. Jump to Class 6 and you have BECs of over 1049cc and cars over 263bhp. That puts a humble Blackbird (1137cc, Class 3 speed trap bracket according to Mr Caterbram's stats) up against built Hayabusas (220bhp?) and monster Duratecs sprouting superchargers from every orifice. In what universe is that fair? (In fact it's all academic in my case, as the MSA put the spanner in my competitive works ages ago.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmar Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 also humble standard hayabusa in class 6 with circa 170 bhp and more weight than a BB... you continue to not reflect that the way in which BEC cars deliver the performance is not on a par with these other cars, it is in fact far greater, plus they have sequential boxes, which by default allow you to accelerate for about 0.3s every gear change more than a traditional h-pattern gearboxes. It is not purely about just power to weight that the way in which the classes are made up. case in point the fireblade cars, one of the better drivers around (brought one to curborough a while back) and even though he drove it to its potential was unable to be competitive in the then class5 structure, so at the end of the year it was discussed as described early in this thread to move this type of car to class 4. If this same scenario played out for BB cars and it was shown to be a similar scenario then the same discussion/decision process would be had... I am not sure what more you want. actually I believe a duratec with a supercharger would be class 7 for some reason, I could be wrong on that one rob PS my mum always used to say 'lifes not fair , get used to it' and with your last comment I now fully understand what this thread is about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeMolloy Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 A Hayabusa with only 170bhp? Isn't that a bit low? Have you had it on a rolling road? I'd be interested to know what sort of peak power you got at the wheels. (For reference, the plot I have seen for an injected Blackbird was 132whp.) But hey, you are actually a far better "worked example" than me. Sub 190 bhp power should plonk you in class 4 (according to my, perhaps flawed, logic). What is your Curb speed trap figure, and how do your ETs compare with the top Class 4 runners at various locations? Would you feel like you were taking sweets from a baby in class 4 or are you happy in class 6 potentially mixing it with 100bhp-more-powerful motors? Genuine questions BTW - no niggle intended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skydragon Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 Fred, to back up what's already been said and also to add another viewpoint. My Class 4 car is a 1800cc K-series with 190bhp and a six speed H-pattern box. There is no way my car can keep up with Rob's Busa in terms of raw acceleration. The combination of the power to weight ratio and the sequential box determine this. On the very twisty bits I can just about keep up with him (eg. My 9.58 secs Vs Rob's 9.47 secs through Ashes at Gurston Down) but on other parts of the course he's long gone (eg. Rob crossed the finish line at Gurston Down at 103mph and I could only manage 97mph). Just focussing on the sequential box alone. If we say Rob saves 0.2 secs a gearchange on me (probably a lot more time saved, most of the time) and we are at an event where there are 8 upward gear changes....that's approx 1.6secs he has on me before we have even started racing....so no, Rob isn't coming into class 4 😬 ...unless I can fit a sequential too... Not knowing your car at all. As the others have said, come along, enter a few events and see how you get on. At the end of the day, the club will make sure you are put in a fair class. It might take a few events to 'benchmark' things, but that shouldn't be an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area Representative Richard Price Posted June 6, 2012 Area Representative Share Posted June 6, 2012 Fred, I think the Curbourough speed trap speeds may be a little missleading. My car is currently one of the quickest class 3 cars, but we were only pulling 92mph at the May Curborough meeting. I'd suggest that, if your BB has only done 93mph over the Curborough finish line, then either you have not made a good exit from Fradley, had a significant head wind, you didn't change gear as quickly as you could have done, didn't use the ideal revs, were carrying significant ballast, or your engine is down on power. (incidentally, how was your quoted 93mph measure?) A BEC with 160bhp is much more likely to be closer in performance to a car engined car with SIGNIFICANTLY more power. However, I agree, a BB is not likely to be an outright match for a 'busa. Likewise, low powered car engined cars should not be a match either, but sometimes they get close Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSL Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 Fred maybe you should just enter a few events & the powers that be can make an informed judgement depending on information gleaned I my opinion I would say that a bog stock Blackbird should be allowed into class 5 on likely achievable times, likely being outclassed on sprints by a margin but more than competitive on hill climbs if suitably well driven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmar Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 Fred - 170 bhp that is a stock 1300 hayabusa I believe (I could be wrong on that), I have a tuned 1400 and was 179.6 bhp at the rear wheels at powertec, no idea what the engine does, suspect between 200 and 210 but that number is rather irrelevant to me... again it is more than just power to weight ratio as mentioned... Curb speed trap figure - errr I would have to check that to be honest i think it was over 100 At the 2 events this year I have attended Vs Class 4 I have beaten all of them Vs Class 5 Only I think RobG at Curb beat me in his circa 250bhp duratec. However I am not the greatest driver and Simon and Darren have shown the way being consistently faster than Class 5. One of my goals this year is to be ahead of class 5 at all events, although not always accomplished 😔. Last year I was beaten regularly by well driven cars in class5 and 4 😳 and that was as much to do with the quality of the other drivers as well as my lack of ability... However it is sometimes horses for courses, I suspect the BECs would struggle much more at circuits like castle coombe or goodwood which have very high top speeds and suit the big power boys, vs the more twisty hills/curborough I am more than happy in class 6 as I think that is the correct place for the good of the overall championship structure, although I would be happy to admit that originally when first proposed I was to say the least sceptical of the change... Chris point of order - the difference is that I would be accelerating for 0.2s more than a H pattern, which is a long way different to actually gaining 0.2s per gear change. Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeMolloy Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 93mph was consistently achieved on 4 different runs, at 2 different events. It isn't that hard to exit Fradley and keep pulling gears... (I may be crap but even I can do that!) Down on power? Maybe, but my assertion is that Blackbirds aren't that "up" on power at the best of times. The 170bhp/140mph that Caterham quoted in their brochure is total bullshot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeMolloy Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 Robmar - sorry, I thought you were saying you had a stock 170bhp Busa. I guess your built motor puts you firmly in the "unlimited" class. Anyone running a stock 170bhp to compare better with class 4? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area Representative Richard Price Posted June 6, 2012 Area Representative Share Posted June 6, 2012 Quoting Fred Gassit: It isn't that hard to exit Fradley and keep pulling gears... Too much speed around Fradley often results in slower terminal speeds. My son is normally quicker over the line than I am. He tends to slow down for Fradley than I do, where I carry a little more speed that compromises my exits. However, normally we're pretty close. I could take more speed than I do around Fradley, but I'd have to wait a lot longer before I could get back on the power again.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeMolloy Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 Richard - what power & weight is your car? Looking at the Honda spec sheets, they claimed 164bhp for the original Blackbird but then revised it downwards to 152bhp a couple of years later. I'd say that probably isn't far from the truth in my case. (Also car + driver total weight about 565kg with some gas.) Somehow I seem to have gained email notification of this thread (I think by quoting someone else). How do I turn it off??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skydragon Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 Chris point of order - the difference is that I would be accelerating for 0.2s more than a H pattern, which is a long way different to actually gaining 0.2s per gear change. Good point Rob. You are right. It would be interesting to work out what the actual real-world advantage was typically. Edited by - skydragon on 6 Jun 2012 17:22:23 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area Representative Richard Price Posted June 6, 2012 Area Representative Share Posted June 6, 2012 Fred, Richard - what power & weight is your car? I guess we're about 590Kg and 150ish bhp. 565Kg BB? are you carrying ballast? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeMolloy Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 465kg for the car (with 12 or 15 litres gas, but only a foam driver's seat), 100kg for me plus kit. The Bird has the full De-Dion rear end, so it is a shedload heavier than the Fireblade LA. What does a Hayabusa car weigh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmar Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 Chris - well you have my data ;) Fred - my busa with some fuel (not a lot) has weighed in around 475Kg...and I think simons is similar as to how to unsubscribe from a thread I think you need ot go find you first post in the thread and unclick the check box below for the notification by email... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skydragon Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 Rob, As an approximation, according to my data logging, over a span of 0.2secs at around 55mph my car will accelerate by 3.2mph. At around 90mph this is reduced to an acceleration of 1.5mph over 0.2secs. In theory, I think (??) this means after a 1-2, 2-3, 3-4, 4-5 upchange (4 up-changes) a sequential boxed car of the same equivalence could be travelling approx 9 - 10 mph faster, approx 0.8 secs sooner. I now understand why I didn't do well in maths at school What the actual real world 'time saving' would be I guess depends on the course and some other factors. 😬 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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