K Series - starter motor - updated and sorted

[Golf Juliet Tango]

[disclaimer] I'm not much of a mechanic. [/disclaimer]

 

The starter motor on the 21 gave up. (Yes, it is the motor and not the solenoid or the wiring)

I took the old one off and have purchased a replacement from Darren at CC. I sent him a pic of the old one so that he knew what I needed (it was his idea)

The old one was a Magneti Marelli M79 (09). It was really easy to remove as there was a direct line for the socket set (with an 8mm allen key head) to get in and out. It had nice cap head bolts like these.

It was mounted using a spacer (they may all need one, I don't know)

The replacement I received is this one..

Annoyingly the motor itself prevents a direct line for the mounting bolts , in the case of the upper, block side fixing it obstructs severely. So I had to mount the thing up with an ordinary allen key.

This was ok for the two away from the block. For the fixing on the block side, where the motor prevents getting a socket set in I had to cut down a allen key to get access.

Having bolted evrything up tightly...

the motor doesn't engage ☹️. Spins well, fails to engage.

 

Helpful suggestions are welcome. Have I got the wrong motor? What might I have done wrong?

 

Stephen

 

 

 

 

_{Democratic dissent is not disloyalty, it is a positive civic duty.}

 

Edited by - Golf Juliet Tango on 9 Dec 2009 12:50:37

 

Edited by - Golf Juliet Tango on 12 Mar 2010 17:29:27

[simonpa]

Did you wire the big red lead from the battery to the solenoid (small cylinder), or directly to the back of the motor?

 

When you turn the key/push the button, can you hear/feel the solenoid actuate?

You could confirm it is throwing the gear out by disconnecting the fat lead between the solenoid and the motor itself. It should just clunk then..

 

I have a spare, but I'm in Fleet. I will be passing round most of the M25 tomorrow, though - if that's any help?

 

Re: the fitting - they do a bit of threaded bar and a nut instead of the allen bolt next to the block - a bit Heath Robinson, but easy to fit with just a spanner!

 

Cheers - Simon

 

 

 

Edited by - simonpa on 1 Dec 2009 17:17:03

[Golf Juliet Tango]

Red supply lead is to solenoid pack.

Ignition fires the motor, I'll go and try to hear if the solenoid clicks in.

 

I did cut a stud for the difficult mounting point. The 17mm nut fouled on the block, I had a 16mm M10 nut but could not get a spanner onto it, so never got it more than finger(tip) tight. So took it all apart and used the cap heads and cut down the allen key (v e r y s l o w p r o c e e d u r e) to get everything done up.

 

Thanks for the offer. I'll report back when I have listened to what is happening.

 

_{Democratic dissent is not disloyalty, it is a positive civic duty.}

[Golf Juliet Tango]

Yes,

lots of whir but no click.

So maybe the signal wire isn't right?

 

_{Democratic dissent is not disloyalty, it is a positive civic duty.}

[simonpa]

Sounds like a faulty solenoid.

There's only one signal wire - the female spade connector on the thickish brown wire.

 

Your battery is fine, isn't it? You can try with the lights on to check - if they dim loads, then there is a bettery problem.

 

Also - you did put the big earth strap back on one of the starter bolts?

 

 

 

 

[Golf Juliet Tango]

Hi Simon

I am pretty confident about the signal wire, but will put a meter across it when there is light tomorrow. What should I see?

Battery is fine (a few weeks old), but I am tempted to whip it out tonight an put the Accumate overnight just by way of precaution.

 

😬 Yes, the earth is back on! I doubt I would have a motor turning if not.

 

_{Democratic dissent is not disloyalty, it is a positive civic duty.}

[Johnty Lyons]

Guys its a pre engaged starter the motor cant turn without the solenoid being engaged so your blatting up a dead end I suggest you check the spacer as they are different for your original and the motor you are now using 😬

 

---

jj

MTM , N.I. L7C AR 🙆🏻

Membership No.3927.

240BHP 1900cc K Series 40th Anniversary

 

 

Edited by - Johnty Lyons on 1 Dec 2009 18:22:31

[Golf Juliet Tango]

OK Johnty

Makes sense. ☹️ regretably. It had occured to me but from the pictures here and here you can not see the difference.

Either way I have to get the darn thing off.

 

_{Democratic dissent is not disloyalty, it is a positive civic duty.}

[andymal]

Hi Stephen

You may not have done anything wrong when fitting the starter as it sounds like the starter is not engaging with the ring gear on the flywheel. This has occurred on a number of 7s - see threads earlier this year from me and Andyg. To be sure whether this is the cause take the new starter off the car and then measure both the new and old motor from each bolt hole to the centre of the pinion (the cogged bit in the centre that engages with the ring gear) and the pinion throw (pull the pinion out fully from the motor and measure the minimum and maximum distance from the starter body). If any of these measurements are more than 3 or 4 mm out it is almost certain that the new starter is not the correct replacement. I managed to solve mine with the help of David Brise at Brise Motorsport (01322 313761) - send him the old starter and he should be able to measure totally accurate and provide a motor that will engage.

Best of luck

Andy

[Golf Juliet Tango]

Hi Andy

Thanks

I had missed your threads from earlier this year. I should have done a search.

I'll get the steel ruler out tomorrow and talk to Darren (I have already sent him an e-mail) to sort things out.

If the two alternative spacers are of the same depth, then I need a different starter (I trust I can get a refund from CC)

 

Had a look now. I am not sure I am any the wiser. I read brise starter wont engage and there was another too.

Hey ho, back out into the cold ☹️

 

I might also contact the man in Bletchley

 

_{Democratic dissent is not disloyalty, it is a positive civic duty.}

 

Edited by - Golf Juliet Tango on 2 Dec 2009 09:13:41

[Golf Juliet Tango]

Well it came out more easily than it went in (thank goodness). However, turning bolts through one sixth of a turn before relocating the tool is not the way forward! Extraordinary that access for tools is so much worse than on the older fitting.

 

Oh yes, I should add that I have spoken to Darren and the alternative spacers are of the same depth. So that is not the problem.

 

The poor 21, sat outside for days on end, in the effing rain. I need the car too.

 

_{Democratic dissent is not disloyalty, it is a positive civic duty.}

 

Edited by - Golf Juliet Tango on 2 Dec 2009 10:40:12

[Golf Juliet Tango]

Caterham suggested removing the motor, jiggling it about and trying again. Just in case the pinnon was in marhginally the wrong place and catching on the back of the flywheel. OK, fair enough, fit has to be pretty exact. Tried that. No joy. ☹️

 

What a dull game and a $%^&ing waste of time. No fun at all. Even of the weather was warm.

Thank goodness it's not raining... or snowing.

 

_{Democratic dissent is not disloyalty, it is a positive civic duty.}

 

Edited by - Golf Juliet Tango on 2 Dec 2009 14:05:53

[Golf Juliet Tango]

Well, today I got the car over to Ratrace. (a BIG thank you to Richard@Summit)

Swapped the Magnetron for a recon Magneti Marelli and everything meshed together straight away! Fabulous.

Between getting one of end the other on, we looked at the flywheel and you could see a mark on one tooth of the flywheel where the starter was failing to engage.

 

So Andymal it was as you suggested. If this one fails, I will contact Brise and get one with the right throw/pinnon. Or I will try and find another recon Magneti.

 

I have spoken to Darren and he will refund the money when he recieves the starter.

 

As previously noted, the advantage of the eariler motor is the easier tool access.

 

 

_{Democratic dissent is not disloyalty, it is a positive civic duty.}

 

Edited by - Golf Juliet Tango on 9 Dec 2009 14:14:19

[Golf Juliet Tango]

Oh yes.

The moral of this story is: Keep the packaging!

 

(Darren, sorry, the box got damp ☹️ - it's a bit of a mess)

 

_{Democratic dissent is not disloyalty, it is a positive civic duty.}

[henry21p]

Can I have your old one please?

Also - when you put it back on, bung some nice heat shielding on.... 😬

[Golf Juliet Tango]

Sorry David

Old one is at Ratrace as it may well be Ok to recondition.

Heat resistant material all around the cables .

 

_{Democratic dissent is not disloyalty, it is a positive civic duty.}

[henry21p]

Reminder: can you post up symptoms/solution and piccies if poss to the 21's site pls. If you need a login reminder, let me know.

[Golf Juliet Tango]

David

Can do but it is a K particular issue rather than a 21 particular issue. Only pix are of the motors side by side which I took to send to Darren at his request. I just wanted it working asap.

I still think that the Magnetron is really badly designed (physical configuration). No idea how good it is as a starter.

 

_{Democratic dissent is not disloyalty, it is a positive civic duty.}

[henry21p]

doesn't matter if it's unique to 21's or common to 7's. worth publishing!

 

all the best

 

D

[Golf Juliet Tango]

Recon motor has failed. Ever since December starting has been difficult. Onto another motor now.

I'm going to contact Brise. Whose name, I find, is pronounced "Bryse" not "Breeze" as I had thought.

 

_{Democratic dissent is not disloyalty, it is a positive civic duty.}

 

Edited by - Golf Juliet Tango on 11 Mar 2010 22:05:39

[Golf Juliet Tango]

Updated but not sorted.

 

The starting problems continue. Plenty of cranking very little firing.

Next target: signal to injectors, contact cleaner at the ready.

 

_{Democratic dissent is not disloyalty, it is a positive civic duty.}

[The Outcast]

It's NOT as simple as folk think I've fitted the relay Mod fed direct from Ign Sw controlling a 30amp relay and using 40amp cable from battery to solenoid it works unless you stall in heavy traffic when under hood temps are very high then Starter just groans and barely turns over I'll get to bottom of it eventually ☹️

[SLR No.77]

The relay mod is only intended to fix the problem with the starter solenoid not functioning due to failure of the MFU or a breakdown in the current feed to the starter solenoid. If you're getting cranking (be it however minimal) then the relay has done it's job.

Slow cranking can be caused by a whole load of faults - from a sluggish starter to too much ignition advance under starting conditions.

 

Stu.

[db]

The holes in my bellhousing were drilled slightly out so when it got hot the starter failed to engage properly -- hit the flywheel.

 

Put a couple of washers in in the end to allow a bit more throw to the pinion and that got it working.

 

Took James Whiting about 6 months of taking the backs off his knuckles for us to finally sort it...

 

My ... Preciousss!