Neal H Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Hi, My R300 (K-series VVC) has a wet sump fitted. I am planning on doing track days and a few Sprints. I know that if I decide to fit slicks I should definitely go for a dry sump, but currently on it's Avon CR500's is it okay to stick with the wet sump on track? I ran my Elise on track with a K-Series and a wet sump on Yoko AO48's without a problem, but had a baffled sump fitted when I had the Honda engine fitted. Also, typically what is the cost of having a dry sump kit fitted and does anyone run with a baffled sump (as a compromise)? Thanks! Neal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shn7 Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Neal, The key differnce between the Elise and the 7 is the orientation of the engine. The K was designed to be fitted transverse as per the Elise and the wet sump is not ideal for a longitudinal installation in the Seven. You pays yer money and takes the risk. The more money you spend (dry sump) the less risk to the engine. No one can give you an absolute answer to the will CR500's and wet sump result in ruined bearings. Having an Apoloo tank is a halfway house. It's all about the lateral G you generate when cornering and the ability of the engine setup not to run out of oil to lubriacate the bearings. Steve. Sussex (West) AR Not forgetting Percy the Polar Bear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neal H Posted February 5, 2008 Author Share Posted February 5, 2008 What is an Apollo tank? Mine appears to have an oil/water seperator, but I have no idea what that does I also see cars advertised with an 'anti-cavitation' tank - is that the same thing? Its all so complicated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Howe Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Neal, I think there is little to add to that which Steve has posted... JH Deliveries by Saffron, the yellow 230bhp Sausage delivery machine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Durrant Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Neal This is what is known as an Apollo or Anti-Cavitation tank and I would not attempt a trackday without one otherwise your main and big end bearings are very likely to be damaged. As for needing a dry sump I suppose it depends how hard you drive on a trackday. Mark D Comp Sec Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Day Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Hi Neal *wavey*Welcome to the madhouse that is Blatchat! I've had a K series, in various guises, that’s been used on track with a wet sump & sticky tyres. For most of that time it ran with an oil/air separator (aka Apollo tank). This helps to remove the air from the oil, as a K series with shallow sump tends to induce air pick-up. There is also some foam in the sump, which is said to help reduce surge. However the perceived wisdom is to remove it & carry out a small mod to the sump gasket to improve drainage. The foam has been known to break up & block the oil pick-up. There is no baffling in the sump (other than the foam). A baffle arrangement can be obtained from Hellier. I ran with this, no foam, an Apollo tank & a modified gasket for some time, & when the engine was stripped for a major upgrade the big end bearings were in good condition; I was lucky! However for road use I would suggest you need no more. Incidentally there is no dynamic problem with a N/S or E/W engine installation. In the Caterham N/S mode there just isn’t enough ground clearance for a standard sump. The standard K series sump is deeper around the oil pick-up & this is fitted in the Elise. Why a properly baffled sump wasn’t made I don’t know. Dry sump systems come in at around £1500. Caterham have 2 offerings: 1 with the oil tank in the bell-housing & 1 with a remote oil tank. The bell-housing tank is very neat packaging; both use the same scavenge pump & rely on the internal oil pump for pressure. Pace supply sump & a 3-stage pump for duel scavenge & pressure. A remote tank is required but it is possible to mount a tank in front of the engine. This is what I have. Hope this helps. Do a search, as there’s plenty in the archives. Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Howe Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 The Appollo is an invention of the devil... designed to make all adjustments to cam timing and alternator belts one thousand time more difficult than life without it. Effectively, it is additional oil capacity, stored approxiamately above and forward of the alternator and allows for a supply of oil to reach the engine during sustained right hand cornering. Of course, when you have used up all it oil, you are back to possible oil starvation JH Deliveries by Saffron, the yellow 230bhp Sausage delivery machine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash.Bailey Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 There is a modified wet sump pan on the market that can be fitted to your car that will solve the problem and provide a usefull power increase. I fitted one and havent looked back If It aint yellow, wonky and wobbly................ 😬 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon_Rogers Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Wonky I thought you had a Duratec not a K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Englishmaninwales Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Effectively, it is additional oil capacity, stored approxiamately above and forward of the alternator and allows for a supply of oil to reach the engine during sustained right hand cornering. John The Apollo does provide extra oil capacity but acts to de-aerate the oil. It does not provide adequate surge protection in the circumstances you describe: Under sustained lateral g force the oil pickup in the sump may become uncovered resulting in low or zero oil pressure, regardless of how much oil is in the Apollo. Malcolm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Howe Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Malcom I agree totally, I was just trying to keep it simple. JH Deliveries by Saffron, the yellow 230bhp Sausage delivery machine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shn7 Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 How does a change of sump provide a power increase? Is it simply a windage reduction? If so then it's not going to be a noticeable gain me thinks. Steve. Sussex (West) AR Not forgetting Percy the Polar Bear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash.Bailey Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 I fitted one of these wet sump pans and I got 226bhp Ok so it was attached to a new engine block and is slightly more expensive at £5500 but it certainly solves the K series problems 😬 If It aint yellow, wonky and wobbly................ 😬 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oilyhands Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Agreed the pressure will fall back substantially, but there will be gravity fed oil at the bearings and with such a reservoir of oil rather than an air passge right through the bearing, the oil pump will be able to move *some* air and therefore *some* oil, rather than pumping air directly to the bearings. Oily Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neal H Posted February 5, 2008 Author Share Posted February 5, 2008 Thanks for all the feedback - very informative It seems that fitting a dry-sump kit is the only sure-fire way of avoiding potential problems - but at about £2k supplied and fitted that isn't an option right now ☹️ I am pretty sure that my car has the anti-cavitation (Apollo) tank fitted, but will check the original invoice tonight which came with the car to be absolutely sure. I am going to track it, but am no driving god, so I doubt I will be pulling too many G's through the fast corners! First time out I will take it easy and keep a beady eye on the oil pressure guage until I am confident that there aren't any problems. How many on here actually track their cars without a dry-sump set up? Cheers! Neal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wild bill Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 I have a question re this, why can't there be a twin tube oil pickup so that whichever lateral force is being applied there is always one part of the pickup in oil or is that too simple ISTR some other engine running with this set up which seems like a much better answer than a baffle. I'm keeping going until i blow up then going Duratec 🥰 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shn7 Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Neal, Looking at the invoice won't guarantee you have an Apollo fitted, it could have been removed. Just lift the bonnet and look for the tall round aluminium tank which will be mounted on the left side just ahead of the engine. It will have two large hoses going to it and one small (metal braided) one from the top connecting to the cam cover of the engine. Steve. Sussex (West) AR Not forgetting Percy the Polar Bear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allen Payne Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 All the Super & Mega(?) graduates race with an Apollo tank and no dry sump on similar sticky tyres and I don't believe they have problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casbar Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 If you have the standard Caterham Oil pressure gauge by the time it reacts around a track there will already have been issues. Its not the fastest reacting piece of kit. Fit a mechanical guage for that, although you also need an oil pressure warning light. And if like me, I never look at the gauges on the track anyway, always looking ahead. I did fit a dry sump though and do run slicks.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oilyhands Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Bill, If air is available at one pickup, then the pump will simply suck the air, it will not draw up the oil at the other pickup, it will remain, unless you have two pumps. Then you are getting near to what a dry sump scavenge system does. Many years ago when my father and I used to build model aircraft there was a problem with fuel surge in the tank, especially if the aircraft went topsy turvey or on a steep climb/dive, we used a piece of rubber hose with a large piece of lead shot in the end with a hole throught it, this would swing around wherever the fuel sat, we christened this little device a 'donkey d*ck'. Oily Edited by - oilyhands on 5 Feb 2008 17:11:55 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neal H Posted February 5, 2008 Author Share Posted February 5, 2008 Steve - thanks for the tip. I will look when I get home tonight. I am also quite liking the look of the 'wet sump anti surge baffle system' available from Hellier (thanks for the link Mick), which seems a sensible precaution at a sensible price. Neal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CageyH Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Before you spend your money, do a search on Hellier Baffle, so you can read the mixed opinions of this. I don't have any experience of it, but have read many stories about it's effectiveness, some good, and some bad. Again, make up your own mind on this. Only dead fish go with the flow....! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casbar Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 I'd also do a search on Hellier in general if I were you 😳 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neal H Posted February 5, 2008 Author Share Posted February 5, 2008 Okay, I've scrapped the Hellier idea Mine definitely has the Apollo tank fitted which is good news at least! Neal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wild bill Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Thanks Oily, informative as always Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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