CSR kangaroo

[Caesar]

I know it has been discussed here before but I had mine SVAd last week after a slow (deliberately so ! ) build. At the end of the construction there was a problem with the loom and one of the effects was that there was no oil pressure showing. CC said they would fix this and the other electrical problems caused by a missing sub loom.

 

I didn't know at the time it was the loom, I had changed the pressure sender to no avail so trusted CC to fix it as promised at post-build inspection, consequently I had not driven it (nor would you with a five grand engine showing nil oil pressure! ).

 

When I collected from dartford I had my baptism of fire on the M25 and for once I was thankful to be on a road with constantly moving traffic (for, this time it was moving) as it avoided changing gear.

 

Yes, I had the dreadful Kangaroo throttle as described here several times before. I reckon I spent the first mile going up and down rather than forward. It is simply terrible and makes the car bloody near undrivable.

 

Thinking it might be me and that I would get used to it I took it for a run this morning. Try as I might It would snatch on a change up to second or, worst, third, no matter how gentle I was or how much I slipped the clutch and, that was on the open road. You can only imagine what it was like on my return when I hit a road with speed humps! I just could not go over one with any dignity, as soon as I hit the hump, my foot jerked on the throttle and, instantly, I was doing Learner Driver impersonations!

 

So, after all this, what do I do? I know there has been talk of re-profiling the throttle lever or of stiffening the roller barrel spring. What did you other owners have to do to rectify this? It really is undrivable.

 

it was

CoSwoRth it! in the end!!

 

Edited by - caesar on 11 Mar 2007 11:33:46

[CageyH]

Sounds like it could be a mapping/sensor issue?

 

I get that on my K series on throttle bodies sometimes, but that is down to the driver doing silly things.

 

Only dead fish go with the flow....!

[Caesar]

Robin W wrote this back last May. Has anyone received a solution yet?

 

 

"I don't argue that the car may benefit from some remapping. However, I reported the hair trigger throttle to CC back in October last year when I took the car in for it's PBC. In the end it took until Christmas to determine the cause of the problem.

 

CC freely admitted in the early weeks that they (CC and Cosworth) were running out of ideas having tried, a replacement lambda sensor, a replacement cat, no cat at all, a remapped ECU, a new ECU, a stronger throttle spring, a replacement engine loom, to name only those that I recall.

 

In the end, it became clear that the problem lay in the throttle geometry. What was already a fairly sharp throttle became almost unmanageable in my car due to the addition of mechanical tollerances. CC's George (development engineer) produced a CAD program to model a solution, which consisted of a 22.5 deg backward bend at the top of the throttle pedal above the pivot point. This, along with a longer cable, solved the problem.

 

They are now testing a prototype of the new pedal and I'm hopeful to get a replacement (along with a longer cable) soon. In the meantime I have tickover set at 1,300 RPM and always let the car warm up fully before driving it."

 

it was

CoSwoRth it! in the end!!

 

[simonbell]

Assuming that this is a symptom on all CSR's (is it?) what is the difference between a cosworth duratec and one built by me, Ammo, someone else....

 

I would suggest the difference is the map ie its a generic best fit map with a certain amount of tolerance whereas my engine, Ammo's engines, etc are mapped individually allowing for small variances in the engine itself. I'm also not convinced that the roller throttle bodies are a good solution either but I have seen them work fine on a duratec so I don't believe they are the problem here.

 

I'm not aware of this problem in any of the DIY duratec engined cars so if individuals can produce something that works then why can't Caterham.

 

I'd be pretty pissed off if I was in your shoes having spent a fair amount of money on a CSR.

 

Simon Bell - Caterham 7 Duratec R

I`ve seen the future.....and it`s powered by duratec Check out the website here

[Caesar]

Agreed, Simon. However, I am not yet pissed off as I anticipate teething problems, it's just that I deliberately took a lot of time building mine so that the many problems with early models could get ironed out and I would not have to incorporate them in my car.

 

So I assumed this admitted fault ( robin said, above "CC freely admitted in the early weeks that they (CC and Cosworth) were running out of ideas" and "They are now testing a prototype of the new pedal and I'm hopeful to get a replacement (along with a longer cable) soon) ) would have had a rectification".

 

I really cannot think that there are CSR drivers out there accepting this, as I said before, it is damn near impossible to drive in traffic or over a hump so all those who complained must have had a solution, what was it?

 

CoSwoRth it!

 

Edited by - Caesar on 11 Mar 2007 13:51:06

 

Edited by - Caesar on 11 Mar 2007 13:51:39

[Tony C]

What is it that activates the lever on the RB's? Is it just a Bowden cable or is there some sort of linkage?

 

I fitted a Jenvey throttle linkage to my Duratec TB's which has some adjustment for ineffective crank angle - giving a greater or lesser ratio between throttle pedal movement and butterfly movement at whichever end of the travel you decide.

 

I've set mine - as much as it can be, because it's not infinitely variable - so that at small butterfly opening there is a large pedal movement and vice versa at large butterfly opening.

 

Sounds like you need to reduce the gearing at small roller opening.

 

Jenvey sell a whole host of mounting brackets to suit just about any configuration, but I decided to make my own linkage mounting bracket.

 

If it were me I'd try to come-up with my own solution rather than wait for one - but that's me

 

BRG Brooklands SV 😬 It seems that perfection is achieved not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing more to take away. (Antoine de Saint-Exupery)

[PorkieAndBest]

I do get this problem from time to time but no where near as bad as the early days. I've developed the following two methods to reduce it;

 

- Heavier spring on throttle body (only temp. set up at moment.) This was an idea from Richard Price. It does help because the control is not as sensitive (you need more push to move it).

 

- The main fix is horrible and I know you're going to hate this... What I do is at low speeds I form a triangle between my right heel (dig into carpet on floor) and right little toe (push hard into wall of car). Actually it might be my 4th toe, but you know what I mean. Then rock the ball of your right foot back and forward to set the throttle.

HERE COMES THE IMPORTANT BIT.

Let your upper right leg relax. It's hard to do, but if you can then as the car goes over bumps (which used to be the catalyst for a spate of kangarooitus in my CSR), your leg does not push the throttle, it just bends at the knee.

Although I know many of you will be weeping but it does work for me especially when driving down a long bumpy lane which needs a speed of (say) 20mph even over little pot holes and the like.

 

Edit to correct totally incorrect words which I seemed to type for no good reason!

 

---

David Waine. CSR200.

 

Edited by - PorkieAndBest on 11 Mar 2007 19:34:46

[Doug phillips]

Caesar

I dont have a CSR, but maybe I help you get started. From what you have said above I am sure that you car is not working as it should, but it may be helpfull to stat from some sort of refrence point. Driving at Caterham around the local roads around our aera is not the best place for it, I am more than happy to let you have a drive of my car 1.8 VVC so that you have a starting point.

 

If you want 😬 I could also try yours, just to see if it may be in-part the driver (I am not saying that you can't drive) but some of the problems may be that you just need to get used to the car.

 

As I have said I am sure thats it is not you , but it we all need a base point.

 

Plus I have not had a drive of a CSR (if you dont ask you dont get ).

 

I am only down the road from you (in Carshalton) and am happy to help you if I can.

 

Joint Surrey AR and Su77on Se7ener

 

[paul jacobs]

It's an odd thing, but the things that really bug you with the CSR in the initial days, weeks and months, seem to fade into insignificance after some time. They are all still there, but the good points far outweight the bad ones, plus of course, you learn to overcome those little tantrums and shows of bad manners - a bit like being married I suppose, they will either get better or you'll overlook them. 😶‍🌫️ 😔

 

i belive that CC are still working on some mods, including the dreaded 'CSR hop' and have yet to come up with the definitive cure all, in the meantime, get some miles on the car and start enjoying it, but please report back here about the other things you come across and we'll either agree, tell you that a fix is still being sought or heavans above say that you're the first to suffer from that particular malady 🙆🏻

 

Paul J.

Loud pipes save lives, but quiet ones save your hearing.

[Peter T]

Mapping.

 

R500 Mango Madness

[Caesar]

Thanks, Paul. I take all that on board but I find it difficult to believe that CC would build and deliver one (no more kits now) with this problem, I doubt a customer would accept it! I am putting miles on it but seriously do need to keep on top of any amendments that anyone has to offer.

 

David Wayne, your contortions sound interesting! however, they are not curing a cause, just the symptoms but, thanks anyway, I will try your trick!

 

Doug, Thanks for your offer of a drive, very kind. Actually this is my 4th 7 so I have an idea of how it should be and from all the response it seems to be a common problem. However, if you want to hook up sometime for a natter and a beer email me direct!

 

I rather think Peter T might be partly right with his suggestion of mapping, this has been mentioned before with reference to other duratec engines it's just that I cannot believe it could be such a simple fix otherwise CC would have done it.

 

Most likely a combination of several factors, mapping, throttle spring, accelerator pedal profile and a mishapen ankle!

 

One day it will get sorted I am sure, meantime I am going to get some Lplates.

 

CoSwoRth it!

[Budjuggler]

Surely the answeris to take it back to Caterham, show them what it does and tell them to fix it. And don't be palmed off with 'they all do that sir' ☹️

 

Andy

 

Whoops - there goes another one

C7 GON

[andy couchman]

When I drove the Millwood demonstrator last year, it had the same issues (plus 2 speeds of tickover - 1,000 and 1,600 that it switched between) and it was very difficult to drive in traffic.

 

Talking to the guys on the Caterham stand at the Autosport show in January, they said that it was the throttle cable geometry that was at fault and that that had now been fixed.

 

My earlier thought was that the issue was probably mapping (the throttle pedal does not 'feel' wrong) and that it was the part throttle/low load parts of the map likely to be at fault (went through this with my engine mapped crossflow at one stage) and that that may have come about if the engine was set up on a dynamometer rather than a rolling road.

 

Has anyone driven a 'fixed' CSR that does not have this problem at all?

 

Andy

[RWHomer]

Common problem! I understand that a mod has been signed off which is likely to involve new springs and a remap (on an exchange basis most probably).

I was interested in the throttle geometry comment. If this also helps it would be relatively simply to install.

Noone has also mentioned the dropped floor now standard with new dash. I find that the angle through which my ankle is pivotting is quite unnatural compared with normal floor and sometimes a bit painful in traffic. Has anyone put in a raised floor at normal height and does it make ankles more comfortable ?

Not sure why new dash makes footwell any hotter than with standard dash- unless air movement inhibited by centre console. Certainly there is a fair amount of heat conducted into the metal tubing, especially around the gear lever. Has anyone successfully found a way to duct cool air into the footwells ?

 

CSR 7 hillclimber

[Caesar]

May I direct interested parties to the other thread here on techtalk "remap of CSR"

 

It seems it is a mapping problem

 

CoSwoRth it!

[PorkieAndBest]

Hi there

 

I was just going to BM you...

 

I had my CSR serviced yesterday; 600 miles. It all went fairly well apart from a mix up on the service log book (I'd not been given one). To be honest, I was quite impressed by their approach; it was something more than a quick oil change and empty the sweetie wrappers from behind the seats...

 

Anyway the thing I was going to BM you about was that they confirmed that CC are working on a mapping solution. I raised two issues; the kangaroo and the coughing/spluttering on overrun. Both were quoted as a result of the <2K rpm mapping issue.

 

Like you, I noticed that other thread; very impressive but as I live in the frozen north, I'm not sure these guys are really a practical proposition for me. Also I'd quite like it to work as CC intended and not to need the help of a 3rd party (even though they looked very impressive).

 

I was going to BM you because I think we were also discussing spare wheel and/or luggage racks for CSR's. Was that you? If "yes", did you get anywhere?

 

The only other slight problem I had was speed camera's on the road outside Hinkley and road -resurfacing leaving 100's of black spots on my nice yellow car. Not impressed with the tar; we way to see if I get a picture of myself through the post...

 

Regards,

 

---

David Waine. CSR200.

[Gambo]

Would it be possible to negotiate a situation with CC, so that if you could prove a remap would solve the problem I.i.e get it remapped, and do a comparison test drive with CC representative(before and after). If you prove it's better, get them to pay for the RR.

I completely agree with you that you should not have to fund the remap.

BUT, the flip side is, if you like the car, get it done(inform CC you are doing it, and you're reasons) and sort it out later. season's here, you need to enjoy it

Sounds to me like you are really P987ed of and not enjoying it at the Mo

 

RED 2.0 HPC 230BHP

[Caesar]

David,

 

I am going to put mine in to CC for first service in a week or so and am glad they are recognising the problem.

 

I have no gripe with them at all and have had nothing but courtesy and help before, during and after the build; I would also much rather work with them than go outside.

 

It is just that I cannot seem to get a proper statement about, what I consider to be a major problem affecting, it seems, all CSR owners.

 

All I want is something from CC saying they are working on it and you seem to have received that when you had your service. Hope we can actually get a remedy soon before the summer goes.

 

Yes, I have talked to ASrch re spare rack. Sometime when the car is more drivable I am going to Cambridge to see them and get quotes, I will let you know.

 

David

 

CoSwoRth it!