philwaters Posted October 10, 2001 Share Posted October 10, 2001 Hi guys, I'm trying to sort out my zetec installation spec at the moment. I picked up my exhaust last night from James Whiting ready to polish during the dark evenings and had a good chat about the cooling side of the installation. I am intending to buy the Zetec from Raceline along with most of their bits, but I am now wondering about which water solution I should opt for. James's incorporates a bypass system with a header tank which is very similar to how Ford intended. Racelines is very smart and looks the buisness but I read on their website that they drill a hole in the thermostat - as I believe you ended up doing Brent. I am just wondering if anyone has any experiances of either systems, good or bad, that they can pass on to help me make my mind up. Phil Waters "Darling, DO you love the 7 more than me?" "Driving OR Fixing?" Caterham on the brain, Caterham around the body! wink.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave H Posted October 10, 2001 Share Posted October 10, 2001 Phil, I have recently (this summer) fitted a Zetec (1.8 on twin 45's) to replace an aged crossflow. I used the James Whiting kit, which included the cooling side. It involves retaining the tempurature sender from the crossflow, but no alterations to the Zetec. You need to make sure the engine you have comes with the thermostat housing etc as you need this to connect up to. The installation was fairly straight forward, no major problems, but I would advise you take a look at the gaps between the engine and the bell housing - I made up a sanwhich plate to fit between the two to stop c**p getting in to the bell housing. Dave H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I.Mupferit Posted October 10, 2001 Share Posted October 10, 2001 Hi Phil, How did you know I would be looking at this thread? SPOOKY..... Anyhow as you say, I went for the Raceline water rail which I subsequently discovered necessitated a small hole drilled in the thermostat top plate. I think the choice really comes down to a subjective decision in the end as to which you prefer aesthetically. I have spoken, however, to somebody else with the James Whiting kit who felt the VERY close proximity of the water tube (some 5mm) to the exhaust primaries caused his engine to overheat! I am not so sure about that being a real problem though as it is quite possible to move the tube away from the exhaust if you wanted to. By choice, I would still go for the Raceline water rail every time. It is functional, has a heater tapping, pressure cap incorporated and, of course, the most important bit...........it really looks the business, especially if you use their coloured silicon hoses! Let me know if you want to pore over my engine if it helps you to make up your mind. Brent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave H Posted October 10, 2001 Share Posted October 10, 2001 Brent, The water tube 5mm from the exhaust primaries seems very close, mine is an inch or more away!! And it runs cooler than the crossflow... Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philwaters Posted October 10, 2001 Author Share Posted October 10, 2001 Hi guys, I think the guy you mean Brent is Nigel Mills at the North Hants meet. I think he went for Dunnell large diameter exhaust pipes and that has caused the tight fit. I don't think this is a normal probel if you use James's pipes - as I now have. Dave, you make a good point about the housing as I intend to buy the engine from Raceline and it will, unless I tell them otherwise, come with the water rail. This would mean that it may not come with the original Ford housing. I suspect they get these with the engine and sell them back or something. Brent, I would very much like to come and have a look at your engine installation, whenever you have lifted the bonnet at the club a crown gathers and I give up trying to see the bits I want to. Phil Waters "Darling, DO you love the 7 more than me?" "Driving OR Fixing?" Caterham on the brain, Caterham around the body! wink.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I.Mupferit Posted October 10, 2001 Share Posted October 10, 2001 Dave, I agree, as I said it wasn't on my car and I believe it is very easy to move it further away, which if it were mine.......etc. My engine, also, runs considerably cooler than the X/Flow, especially whilst sitting in traffic. In fact it is more of an issue when the weather is cold to get the engine up to proper working temperature, thus requiring some rad. blanking. Brent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I.Mupferit Posted October 10, 2001 Share Posted October 10, 2001 Phil, Give me a call on 07778-459663 and we can arrange for you to call round for a good look. Brent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve W Posted October 10, 2001 Share Posted October 10, 2001 I also have the raceline system. No problem at all,works great and looks the part. Brent what's this about drilling a hole ? What does it do ? In fact that car runs very cool (70-80c) if the guage is right. Only gets upto around 90c in traffic and then the fan cuts in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philwaters Posted October 10, 2001 Author Share Posted October 10, 2001 Brent, Thanks - I will call later if that is ok, so I can have the ok from the other half teeth.gif Phil Waters "Darling, DO you love the 7 more than me?" "Driving OR Fixing?" Caterham on the brain, Caterham around the body! wink.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I.Mupferit Posted October 10, 2001 Share Posted October 10, 2001 Steve, Why the hole in the thermostat? When I first installed the Zetec, I found that the temperature would swing from 100 then drop back to 65/70 which all seemed quite alarming. I didn't at first call Raceline but instead sat and thought about what was causing this wild swing. I deduced that as the temperature sender unit was fitted at the back of the water rail right by the exit from the cylinder head and the thermostat was sited several inches forward of this the following was happening. The thermostat was unable to react to the true temperature inside the cylinder head as the water in the rail was effectively stagnant whilst the 'stat was closed. Eventually the effects of convection cause the 'stat to open although there is a temperature loss along the water rail so, therefore, it is reacting later than the ideal. This effect was more noticeable as the engine is warming up as when it is good and hot, the heat being given off by the surrounding metal means there is less of a heat loss in the water rail. I decided the cure for this was to drill a 1mm hole in the thermostat top plate to allow some water to pass over the sensor bulb of the thermostat thereby allowing it to react to the heat rise in the engine somewhat sooner. It worked and it was only after this I too noticed the same suggestion on Racelines website so obviously "Great minds think alike" Hope that explains it. Brent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashaughnessy Posted October 11, 2001 Share Posted October 11, 2001 I remember this kind of behaviour (start the engine from cold, temp goes to 100 then settles back down to normal) on our old capri with a 2 litre pinto engine. I could never figure out what caused it, but it didn't seem to cause a problem. Perhaps it had a similar cause? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve W Posted October 11, 2001 Share Posted October 11, 2001 Thanks for the explanation. Never had this effect temp only ever gets to 70c unless sitting in traffic. Maybe the past owner has already done the mod. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TravellinMan Posted October 11, 2001 Share Posted October 11, 2001 Well, 30k miles in a year with my 2l Zetec (James' fitting kit and water system) and no overheating problems at all. System stlightly TOO efficient in the cold so ended up taping over half of the radiator in Montana. Travellin' Man Tony Boyd 97,000 miles in 6 years! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philwaters Posted October 11, 2001 Author Share Posted October 11, 2001 Nice to hear from you Tony, what have you been up to - haven't seen you since the Quaife visit. Can you tell me how your temperature acts - does it cycle hot then cold then hot again and so on or is it dead steady? Is it quick to warm up from cold and how does it react in traffic jams etc? (not that you get many over in the States!!) Phil Waters "Darling, DO you love the 7 more than me?" "Driving OR Fixing?" Caterham on the brain, Caterham around the body! wink.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fast Westie Posted October 11, 2001 Share Posted October 11, 2001 Phil I'm not Brent, but I do have two Zetecs with Raceline water rails. I drilled a hole in the thermostat on the road car to cure the temperature 'bounce' problem and then told Raceline about the solution before it was on their web site! The race car only has a restrictor plate so no probs there. The only limtation of the water rail is the lack of expansion capacity which means that if the engine gets very hot (blatting up alpine passes in 30deg heat) some water vents out so make sure you have a catch tank on the overflow. I would also suggest you go for a second hand engine otherwise you'll spend 6000 miles loosening it up Edited by - Fast Westie on 11 Oct 2001 13:32:19 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I.Mupferit Posted October 11, 2001 Share Posted October 11, 2001 Phil, If I may be presumptious and answer your question to Tony about temperature swing. If he has James Whitings fitting kit, he wouldn't experience the problem because the thermostat is sited in the cylinder head take-off using the standard Ford location & fittings. Fast Westie, I didn't realise yours was the other 'Great mind', and there I was giving Raceline all the credit for coming up with the same idea as me! Acknowledgements due Brent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philwaters Posted October 12, 2001 Author Share Posted October 12, 2001 Hi, just read on their web site about having a header tank as part of the system. Has anybody done this - how does it fit in? Also, is it possible to create a bypass in the system for faster warm up by taking a second pipe from the heater connection on the water rail down to the radiator? Phil Waters "Darling, DO you love the 7 more than me?" "Driving OR Fixing?" Caterham on the brain, Caterham around the body! wink.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I.Mupferit Posted October 12, 2001 Share Posted October 12, 2001 Phil, I think a bypass, as you suggest, would only increase the warm up time by allowing water to flow through the rad. continually. I have never found long warm up time to be an issue, even with the 1mm hole drilled in the thermostat. I did, in fact, start off with a 3.5mm hole which I found caused an extended warm up period. I then went down to 1mm on the basis that it could be increased as required but found, coincidentally, that was about right. See you later Brent Edited by - BRENT CHISWICK on 12 Oct 2001 09:10:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
julians Posted October 12, 2001 Share Posted October 12, 2001 I have the raceline water rail plus a header tank on my 2.0 zetec. There is an elbow in the water rail, this goes off to a splitter, one way goes to the header the other goes back to the bottom radiator hose, this means that even when the stat is closed you get a flow of water through the cylinder head so avoiding the 'up to 120 C and then back down to 80 C' situation. BUt because this flow goes to the bottom radiator hose it just gets pulled straight back round into the engine without going into the radiator, so that it doesent slow down the warm up time by much. Seems to work OK to me, running temp is about 80 C whilst driving normally , climbing to about 95 in traffic and settlig at about 90 on the track. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philwaters Posted October 12, 2001 Author Share Posted October 12, 2001 How do you manage to post so quickly... I've checked behind me and there are no camera's! What I meant, and should have put clearly, was to bypass the radiator, but still allow flow around the engine. By coming off the heater port you will be creating a flow up to that point - which is closer to the thermostat. I am beginning to think I am worrying about nothing. Looking forward to looking over your car later. Phil Waters "Darling, DO you love the 7 more than me?" "Driving OR Fixing?" Caterham on the brain, Caterham around the body! wink.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philwaters Posted October 12, 2001 Author Share Posted October 12, 2001 That sounds interesting Julians, Can you run a heater with the heater tank? Also, when the thermostat opens, what causes the water to pass through the radiator, as it already has a path that it can take, and would be less restrictive that the radiator - unless this comes down to the size of the pipes (small for the header tank)? I don't suppose you have any pictures or could do a simple line diagram could you? I have pipe combinations coming out of my brain at the moment. Phil Waters "Darling, DO you love the 7 more than me?" "Driving OR Fixing?" Caterham on the brain, Caterham around the body! wink.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashaughnessy Posted October 12, 2001 Share Posted October 12, 2001 I've just thought of something. The 1mm hole described sounds just like the hole in the thermostat on my xflow, and also sounds just like the hole described in a book I have, "Fundamentals of motor vehicle technology" by VA Hillier. He describes just such a hole in the thermostat for just such a purpose. So doesn't the standard zetec have a hole in it's thermostat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Turner Posted October 12, 2001 Share Posted October 12, 2001 I have just fitted a 2 litre Zetec using a James Whiting fitting kit and as I understand it by using the cunningly designed Ford thermostat housing and by-pass pipe coolant flows around the engine during the warm up phase short circuiting the radiator. Once the engine is up to temp normal service is resumed and water flows via the rad. Any additional hole in the stat would reduce the efficiency of the system as designed by Ford. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
julians Posted October 12, 2001 Share Posted October 12, 2001 Yes, it did have a heater on it, but I've recently removed it. Not quite sure how/why the water will start to flow through the rad when the thermostat is open, I presume its the path of least resistance, seeing as the radiator top hose is a good 3-4 times the size of the bypass hose. If you get a haynes manual for the zetec you will see that this is how ford do it in its original installation in the mondeo. I'll try and email a diagram when I get home tonight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I.Mupferit Posted October 12, 2001 Share Posted October 12, 2001 Anthony, In the Raceline set-up, the thermostat used is the X/Flow item and I must admit, all those I have seen don't have the hole as standard. Paul, Yes you are right but just to clarify the picture, we aren't suggesting a hole be drilled in the 'stat if you are using the James Whiting set-up. It is only an issue on the Raceline water rail. Brent I must get on with some work now or I'll go broke! Edited by - BRENT CHISWICK on 12 Oct 2001 11:22:01 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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