Brise starter motor - numpty problem with fitting

[Strangely]

I gave in and bought a "direct replacement for Magneton" Brise starter to try to cure my starting problems. I was rather displeased to find that it's not actually a direct replacement.

 

The Brise doesn't use the spacer plate that the Caterham starter uses (which is probably good), but it means that none of the bolts off my old starter fit; they're too long. Also, because of the difference in design of the Brise, one of the bolts is never going to work with an Allen head; it needs to be a "normal" bolt head.

 

So, can anyone please tell me what I need to ask for so that I don't get laughed out of the bolt shop? I think the old bolts are M10 and have "UM 12.9" stamped on the top. They are 55mm long (the new ones need to be about 10mm shorter), but the top 21mm (nearest the head) has no thread.

 

For the N. Hants & Berks crowd, any suggestions on where to buy some of these beasts? I suspect that a trip to Halfords may not be too fruitful.

 

Depressedly yours,

Jason.

 

Edited by - strangely on 9 Mar 2005 00:26:16

[V7 SLR]

Can't you just cut down the bolts to the size you need?

[Strangely]

No, because of the Allen head vs. "standard" head problem.

[Tony Whitley]

I'll have a look in my bit box. Failing that you could swap your allen head for one (or all) of my hex heads. [Thus ensuring I can never fit a Brise starter... D'Oh!]

 

M1 7 SMW 1.4-now-1.8K Mem.No. 10376 Picture here 😬

[WILL FLY]

Jason

 

Just take the bolts into AHC on the A30 in Camberley (about a mile up from the M & S roundabout on the RHS), they will have just what you want and won't think you're a plonker, they get lots of plonkers going in there saying ' can I have one of these but longer with a bolt head on it mate'

 

 

Roy.

 

See willfly.net for more info.

If you don't spin you ain't trying

Happiness is knowing you have just a tad too much power

 

[Strangely]

'Tis done! Halfords failed me, but I had a rather obvious brain-wave this morning (that I should have had last night, but I was knackered). I moved the stud from the top left to the bottom, since that's the one that I wouldn't be able to get an allen key to. I also cut down the two bolts and the stud (OK, Nige...). Steve told me that I probably wouldn't be able to cut the 12.9 bolts with a hacksaw, which proved to be just the kind of negative encouragement that I needed ; 5 hacksaw blades later, and all 3 were trimmed.

 

Thanks for your help everyone. I've had too many premature "successes" with this starting problem to proclaim anything yet, but if the noise it makes is any sign of intent, then this Brise is a serious super-starter!

[stevefoster]

😬 Depends on the hacksaw and how determined you are.

Your tool box has probably improved since I saw it last. I was thinking blunt junior hacksaw 😬 😬

 

Hants (North) and Berkshire Area club site here

My racing info site

here

 

 

 

[Strangely]

I was quite determined .

[philwaters]

New blade since I last tried to use it then 😬

 

Phil Waters

[xflow7]

Well done.

 

Just a tip when cutting bolts. After they're cut, take a file (or a grinder if you have one) and knock the beginning of the threads down just a bit by putting a little chamfer around the end (so it looks kind of like the end of an original finished bolt). Makes it worlds easier to get them started in holes without cross-threading.

 

Dave

[Sheds Moderator]

Strangely, to save you using up the world supply of hacksaw blades and elbow grease the next time you need to cut a high tensile bolt, may I suggest the purchase of a £5 supermarket angle grinder? Thousands of uses, once bought you will take it everywhere. "Can't open a jar love? Give it here...." NNNYYYYYYAAAAAAAAWWWWWWW !

"Laugh that one off sunshine...got any other stuck jars love?"

[Strangely]

I actually did do the chamferring thing. Give me a gold star!

 

Phil, I don't think I'd class the current hacksaw blade as "new" .

 

That's a good idea, BOSS. One good thing to come out of this is that I got talking to one of the other Dads whose child is in the same class as my son. He's building a Capri to take post-historic racing and offered the use of his well-equipped garage and trailer .

[Normans_Ghost]

I put a Brise starter on last November. No problems since, till this weekend on the way back from Scotland.

 

Stalled it at some stop-go light in Glossop. Pressed big red thing - nothing. Fiddled with wires and it started. Same thing happened at stop-go lights On A57 near Ladybower. Fiddled and it started. Concluded the big red thing was on it's way out. Got home, stalled it outside as some prat was moving his car from outside my driveway to the garage (the lane was completely empty, so why park outside a driveway!).

 

removed big red thing and held wires together - nothing (except a spark).

 

Push started and got it in garage. Monday took starter off, phoned Brise, took end cover off and inspected and tested with Ohmeter. Seems solonoid windings are faulty.

 

New one arrived next day and old one on it's way back.

 

 

That was a long winded way to say "well done Brise"

 

Norman Verona, 1989 BDR 220bhp, Mem No 2166, the full story here

[Strangely]

I did notice that the box proudly proclaimed that the starter is guaranteed for a year. I intend to keep it somewhere safe and hope that I don't need it.

[Mike Bees]

"I intend to keep it somewhere safe and hope that I don't need it" - best thing to do with most starter motors it would seem 😬

 

Mike

[V7 SLR]

Norm and Jase, do your new starters look like the one half way down this page? If so, did you pay £250 plus vat for it?

 

I ask because I saw a Brise starter on JimmySLR's Se7en when I was at DVA's last Sept/Oct. It looked nothing like the Magneton starter which the Brise one on this web page does.

 

Jimmy's looked more like the Vx one above the Caterham K starter. Before I shell out on a new starter I need to know I'm buying the right one. I have also heard Brise are selling a cheaper Magneton replacement at about £180 plus VAT. What's the story chaps?

[Normans_Ghost]

Now thereby hangs a tale. Mine should be a 892909AX. The last 2 digits (09) indicate the number of teeth on the pinion. However somewhere on the way (probably Roger's clutch holder aka flywheel) the pinion required has 10 teeth. So my BDR has a Pinto starter.

 

Ring Brise on 01322 277622, talk to Brian and he'll advice you.

 

Norman Verona, 1989 BDR 220bhp, Mem No 2166, the full story here

[Strangely]

Nige, I ordered a 9522 @ £249 + £10 P&P + VAT. It doesn't look quite like that picture. The motor and solenoid are more like the picture above it, but the bit that mates with the flywheel is similar to the picture.

 

I've got a few photos of the Brise starter next to a Magneton which I will be including in my web write-up when I get time. If you'd like to see them sooner then BlatMail me your favourite email address and I'll send them over.

[Tony Whitley]

Anuvver tip when shortening bolts is to put a nut on first, when you unscrew it after the operation it will clean up the end of the thread. It also gives you something to hacksaw against to keep the end square ('spesuhly when using a junior hacksaw...)

[V7 SLR]

I have been suffering from the K series click ‘o doom for about 3 years now, but I managed until now as it was intermittent. Now it’s becoming a serious PITA so I have set to determining the fault. I have checked/resolved the following:

 

*arrowright*1. New battery. Tested “up to the job” by shorting low current circuit to battery.

*arrowright*2. Cabling leading to the MFRU. This does not provide enough current to the low current circuit. Shorting the low current wire to the battery results in a positive start.

*arrowright*3. MFRU – seems OK although can’t really test it properly until number 2 (above) is fixed.

*arrowright*4. Added additional relay in series with MFRU to provide decent cabling directly from battery.

 

… and until last weekend this seemed to be enough but I couldn’t restart V7 at a petrol station, nearly leading to a heart attack as I pushed it to the top of the slope in the petrol station 3 times for a failed bump start.

 

It wouldn’t start when I shorted the low current wire to the battery this time either, so the starter itself must be at fault. There was a very positive click, but the motor wouldn’t turn.

 

Yesterday I decided I’d remove the damned starter altogether and get inside the solenoid once and for all. I failed of course as the plastic rear part of the solenoid is bonded or crimped to the metal forwards part. There are 3 terminals sticking out the back of the solenoid:

 

*arrowright*Low current, switched from starter button.

*arrowright*High current from battery, always on, except when battery master key is removed.

*arrowright*High current to motor

 

What normally happens is a low current pulls the solenoid core backwards, simultaneously pulling a lever which pushes the starter motor forwards and then when at the end of its travel, it shorts the two high current terminals (above) together.

 

On my starter motor, the 2 terminals were not shorting together, therefore even though I was getting a very positive click, the motor wasn’t turning.

 

Hoopy warned me that the plastic rear of the solenoid was liable to crack and fail, and sure enough when I applied a spanner to the high current terminal to release the battery cable, the terminal itself spun and punched a small hole through the plastic body.

 

Once I’d got the starter off the car, I could see that this hole was in a very advantageous place. It afforded me the access to the inside of the solenoid that I wouldn’t otherwise have managed. I poked various sandpaper items in between the plates and rubbed away all the arced grime and carbon deposits and then flushed it all out with carb cleaner (I’ve run out of Servisol so that’ll have to do). Tested it on the bench with a continuousy tester and all appeared well (finally), so I popped it all back together and it worked well for a 50 mile run around the Stratford and Evesham countryside which included a couple of test “hot” starts once I’d got home.

 

I have no doubt that this is a temporary measure, and I’ll have to buy a Brise starter eventually, but they’re 300 quid and I could better use that money and defer the new starter for another day. I hope to pawn enough computer parts on eBay to pay for it before the Haggislander tour in May. I think it’ll be needed before then but if it lasts until after next Friday, I won’t have too much pain during my mapping session at Emerald.

 

Pics sent to me (with thanks) from Jason and James here, here, and here.

 

In the first 2 pics, Jason has placed the Brise starter next to the Magnaton one for comparison.