Tony C Posted August 10, 2003 Share Posted August 10, 2003 I've managed to fashion an attachment to the throttle pedal that enables standard heel & toe. I used a 6mm dia steel rod obtained from B&Q, designed to suspend garden lanterns. The load is taken by inserting one end of the rod into the throttle pedal 'closed' stop and the rod is then bent to position the foot end in the best position to be found by my wandering heel. I bent the rod so that it contacts the outboard side of the standard pedal where it attaches to the tube and attached it with a cable tie. Seems to work fine, although the increased lever arm gives a very light feel to the heel. Pic here BRG SV 😬 It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince by Antoine de Saint-Exupery) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
se7enmad Posted August 10, 2003 Share Posted August 10, 2003 ...seems like heel and toe is very important for you do you really need to use the technique frequently? The only times I've felt the need to use heel and toe is to keep max revs up a hill, especially with peaky engines. I don't think I've ever used it on the road, as I avoid it, as my right foot usually tries to slip under the throttle. Antonella 1998 Caterham Classic (Malta) .. still not spotted ! my site here more photos here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony C Posted August 10, 2003 Author Share Posted August 10, 2003 Don't need to use it very often, but when braking and changing down for a corner, rather than a bend, I find it gives a smoother transition. I found I could accomplish heel and toe by putting only the left side if my toe on the brake pedal and rolling my foot to blip the throttle, but the pedal gap din't make it easy and I frequently had to reposition my foot on the brake pedal which sort of defeated the whole idea. The extension I've made prevents my foot slipping under the throttle and I can pivot my right foot to hit the throttle with my heel while maintaining the standard brake foot position. BRG SV 😬 It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince by Antoine de Saint-Exupery) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowman Posted August 10, 2003 Share Posted August 10, 2003 You could always swap the SV for a Classic Tony. Then you'd have no problem at all hitting as many pedals as you like with one foot 😬 😬 😬 Brrrrrrrrr..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony C Posted August 10, 2003 Author Share Posted August 10, 2003 Know what you mean Snowman, that's one of the reasons I went for an SV - you don't have to be fat to drive an SV  I've had to spend quite a lot of time bending the pedals sideways so that I only hit the intended pedal - even if it is an SV and have had to reposition the whole pedal cluster to the rear-most position to achieve the required steering wheel and gearchange reach while still being able to reach the pedals. The small shiny bit to the right of the throttle pedal in the picture, had to be added so my shoe didn't get caught on the chassis member - "Honestly officer, my foot got caught on the throttle pedal and I couldn't slow down". 😬 BRG SV 😬 It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince by Antoine de Saint-Exupery) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john aston Posted August 10, 2003 Share Posted August 10, 2003 If you dont heel and toe you ain't driving properly. And 1It's not difficult 2 It sounds wonderful End of story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Locust Posted August 10, 2003 Share Posted August 10, 2003 Are the pedals significantly wider spaced on an SV then? Never had a problem in a standard width roadsport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony C Posted August 10, 2003 Author Share Posted August 10, 2003 There's enough width available in the pedal box so that normal shoes can be worn. I found however that my clutch foot was being slid off the pedal by contact with the left side of the tunnel as I depressed it and I kept hitting the throttle pedal when I went for the brake. The initial need was to move the clutch pedal to the right and the brake pedal to the left. It took a bit trial and error to get an ideal set-up. I can now rest my clutch foot in front of the pedal and get it back into position without getting it trapped. BRG SV 😬 It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince by Antoine de Saint-Exupery) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
se7enmad Posted August 11, 2003 Share Posted August 11, 2003 "If you dont heel and toe you ain't driving properly" ahhh thank you Mr Aston! That's what I wanted to hear "Wanna catch the plane and come down for a ride with me" Better not - you'd be subject to someone who drives scarily, most often too fast, scares the hell out of most people and makes little kids smile. There are also a lot of kiddos in fast hatchbacks down here who do not like me at all. No I don't drive properly, I just have F U N... 😬 😬 😬 😬 😬 😬 😬 😬 😬 😬 😬 😬 Wonder why rally cars don't have heel and toe devices then?!?! hmmmmm... Antonella 1998 Caterham Classic (Malta) .. still not spotted ! my site here more photos here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie_pank Posted August 11, 2003 Share Posted August 11, 2003 If you don't heel and toe as you brake and change down through the gears, you are using engine braking on the rear wheels, which has a similar effect to putting the handbrake on. Your other choice is to stay in the same gear and just drop the clutch before the engine stalls, however it means you're going to be out of the corner slower as you won't always be in a gear appropriate to your road-speed. Â Antonella why would you brake and blip the throttle only going uphill - I think you may be talking about blipping the throttle on downchanges rather than h&t. This is something else which is also adviseable for a) clutch longevity and b) downchanges on anything except straight roads (see my reference to handbrake-behaviour above)Â Â Â Â Â Â Charlie'n'Kermit The plan is: sort out the loose connection between Emerald & throttle pot! S5EVN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john aston Posted August 11, 2003 Share Posted August 11, 2003 Antonnella - will take you word on your ability to frighten people , thanks. Heel and toeing isn't actually about this- or even going quickly- it's about changing gear in the smooothest and most satisfying way .You ought to try it- it's really not difficult. And you will find that most , if not all rally cars- and racers - fitted with a conventional gearbox (like your 7 I assume) are also fitted with a heel and toe device . It's called the driver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ECR Posted August 11, 2003 Share Posted August 11, 2003 In Motor Sport competition the harder you brake the longer you can keep your foot on the accelerator. This is good for lap times. However the severity of your braking is limited by the grip of your tyre on that particular stretch of tarmac (tyre compounds temperature, weather conditions etc etc). Nevertheless the optimum braking pressure is such that the tyre is nearly (but not quite) loosing grip. If you then change gear (and do not heel and toe) you will be adding engine braking to foot braking and because the tyres were already just at their limit of adhesion you will loose grip. It follows that in a perfect world anyone who does not heel and toe when changing gear (to eliminate engine braking) is not able to brake in the optimum fashion. Put another way. If you brake perfectly (non heel and toe) at 50 yards from a corner and change gear whilst you are doing it then you could be braking at say 40 yards from the corner if you heel and toe whilst changing gear. That’s the theory I do it (on track) because it feels right and sometimes on the road for my own entertainment... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
se7enmad Posted August 11, 2003 Share Posted August 11, 2003 "why would you brake and blip the throttle only going uphill - I think you may be talking about blipping the throttle on downchanges rather than h&t" did'nt say I don't do a downchange, most often two as our hill venues are pretty steep.. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I also did not say I never tried it - said I don't frequently find use for it. That said I don't do track days as we don't have one. I just asked how often does one feel the need to do a "heel and toe". I do'nt think anyone uses a "heel and toe" in hillclimbs over here, just one guy who has a bike engined single seater who is fast improving on his performance. Again, just as I described, keeping revs up whilst negotiating hairpins. He does change technique during sprints I've noticed. I'havent noticed heel and toeing in Sicily also, but there the hills are nice, wide and not so steep. They just forget about the brakepedal ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Heel and toe is great when you're negotiating a surface that can lose traction eg gravel. You are always in control with the throttle. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Agreed about the driver being the heel and toe device. Disagreed whether there is a frequent need for it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Conventional gearbox? What would your def. of unconventinonal be? For me it would be a dragracing two speeder. I have a Quaife close ratio 4 spd. As I do not have the power to make better use for the box I still have to dip the clutch to turn in. I think you also have to keep in mind that uphill you have to control under/oversteer as you exit the corner, it is not so simple as doing it on track. Anybody got any neutral handling cars? I don't...  Antonella 1998 Caterham Classic (Malta) .. still not spotted ! my site here more photos here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwyatt Posted August 11, 2003 Share Posted August 11, 2003 There is no doubt that for remotely quick track driving, heel and toe is pretty essential. If you are anywhere near threshold braking the rears will be on the verge of locking up even before you ask them for extra load by letting the clutch out in a lower gear with the resultant engine braking. Do this without heel and toe and you will get a chirp from the rear tyres as them momentarily lock, do this in anything but a perfectly straight line and a spin is very likely! For the road, anything that makes your driving smoother and the car more stable is surely a bonus? The only real question is whether to double clutch as well, which is down to whether you have a gearbox with synchro or not... Tip - if you can teach yourself to heel and toe in your "normal" road car, then in a 7 it will be second nature!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie_pank Posted August 11, 2003 Share Posted August 11, 2003 I need to h&t whenever I do a hill start as the handbrake is under the dashboard in the passenger footwell. This is actually a blessing in disguise because it means that I get plenty of practice in for when I want to corner properly... Antonella your post suggests that heel and to is an object - "a heel and toe", also the context you are describing - going up a hill and needing to downchange to stay in the powerband - is not one which would require the technique of heel and toe - so please forgive me if I think we are talking at cross-purposes.  Just to clarify - heel and toe is the technique of blipping the throttle in order to match engine-speed to road speed whilst downchanging DURING braking. This requires that you use your right foot on the brake and the accelerator simultaneously (because your left foot is operating the clutch) thus "heel and toe". C Charlie'n'Kermit The plan is: sort out the loose connection between Emerald & throttle pot! S5EVN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooby dooby doo Posted August 11, 2003 Share Posted August 11, 2003 always and whenever possible is my chosen time for heel and toe. lots of fun and something that is satisfying when you get it just right. I often just change gear for the sake of getting the H&T practice 😬 trickier when you want 1st (for a hairpin) and have to double declutch as well to get the layshaft spun up quickly enough  HOOPY R706KGU Hoopylight R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
se7enmad Posted August 11, 2003 Share Posted August 11, 2003 Hi Charlie Pank, English is not my first language so I wholly understand the occasional misunderstandings arising from my posts. When I race things come automatically - I feel it is really difficult to get it down in sequence in writing. Wow, do you really think I was referring to using heel and toe up the straights!?!?!? *eek* ... Antonella 1998 Caterham Classic (Malta) .. still not spotted ! my site here more photos here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted August 11, 2003 Share Posted August 11, 2003 Hi Tony Looks very complex All I did was to bend the accelerator peddle to it was the same height as the brake on full braking. Then pop riveted a slightly wider piece of alli to the top of the accelerator peddle. Still works a treat some 12 years on. My size 10 right foot is slightly wider than most, read rather a lot wider, still fits between the brake accelerator peddle if the brakes are low and the set point changes. Remembering to use the hand brake to re-adjust the rear brakes soon cures that problem. As charlie_pank said great for hill starts.  Well its just another method.......... 😬  'Can you hear me running' ......... OH YES and its music to my ears 😬 😬 😬 1988 200 bhp, 146 ft lbs, 1700cc Cosworth BD? engineered by Roger King, on Weber's with Brooklands and Clamshell wings, Freestyle Motorsport suspension. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony C Posted August 11, 2003 Author Share Posted August 11, 2003 A bent bit of rod complex  Your method sounds interesting though Bilbo - toe & toe if I read it right. Not totally satisfied with my bent rod yet. I'll give it a few days to practice, but I find the lack of feel a slight problem - my heel doesn't know quite where it is yet. I might try hinging a piece of ally from the floor to rest on the round bit of the throttle pedal next - or I might not. Gives me something to fiddle with though 😬 BRG SV 😬 It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince by Antoine de Saint-Exupery) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gridgway Posted August 11, 2003 Share Posted August 11, 2003 I have had a flat plate the width of the throttle pedal circular pressy bit welded on to make a similar extension as I have trouble H&T'ing in the caterham by rolling my foot. In mine it is not helped by H&T'ing with different brake pedal pressures. The height of the brake pedal thus changes. Although as ECR points out you need to be near or on the limit of braking to need it. I def find it easier to H&T with the side of my foot lower down rather than side near the ball of my foot IYSWIM. Would an alternative technique for the *really* skillful be to moderate the brake pressure applied by the foot at the point of gear change to keep the braking at max? This wouldn't work for 'lead-feet' Carmichael of course (ref previous braking thread!). Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie_pank Posted August 12, 2003 Share Posted August 12, 2003 Antonella, Your English is infinitely better than my Maltese, sorry for misunderstanding you. Charlie'n'Kermit The plan is: Wire in a camera detector to calm my paranoia S5EVN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
se7enmad Posted August 12, 2003 Share Posted August 12, 2003 it's ok... 😬 I guess people take me too seriously sometimes. Most times I'm giggling away when reading things. Not because I'm making fun of people but because I am learning to take things in a more positive way, and not in a literal sense. Not sure it reflects in my writing though! and not sure I do want it to reflect. Sorry if I've wound anyone up! Please appreciate that there are different ways of doing things and that there's not one right way, just different opinions. Antonella 1998 Caterham Classic (Malta) .. still not spotted ! my site here more photos here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warrent Posted August 13, 2003 Share Posted August 13, 2003 Personally, I'll use the technique as often as possible, both on track and on the road, and not just in the seven but in the tin top too. Use of the technique reduces wear on the clutch and wear within the gearbox, as you are asking the car to do less work.  It's also the smoothest ride for passengers who dont feel any jerkiness in the gearchange. And it still always amazes me the number of people who have absolutely no idea of smoothness and mechanical sympathy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now