Area Representative Nick Bassett Posted April 22 Area Representative Share Posted April 22 (edited) A new issue with my car! My battery has been on the way out for a long time now and I keep the car on a trickle charger to ‘keep it going’, but always planning to change the battery for this Spring. Last Sunday went out for a blat – all good. Got home, waited for the car to cool down and then attached trickle charger. Next day noticed the battery was failing to accept a charge – red error light illuminated on the CTEK. Assumed the battery had finally died, although a little odd as on the blat the previous day the car was fine. Ordered a new battery, fitted it Saturday morning ready for a blat yesterday (Sunday). Started the car after fitted new battery to check all was good – no problem, fired first time. Sunday morning car was completely flat – no charge whatsoever! Fitted my CTEK to battery and left overnight – kill switch switched ON. Checked this morning and once more red error light illuminated on the CTEK. I’ve just completely disconnected the battery, reconnected the CTEK and almost immediately I get 2 charging lights illuminated on the CTEK and no red error light. Seems like something is drawing current from a new battery to completely exhaust it overnight – would that be a correct assumption? I don’t own a multimeter and would probably struggle to operate it! Short of calling the RAC, any thoughts? Edited April 22 by Nick Bassett Spelling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Jonathan Kay Posted April 22 Member Share Posted April 22 What model is the new battery? You need to test it under load. I strongly recommend getting a multimeter and we can help you with getting to know it. The most recent little one that I bought was a Draper DMM201 and that should be fine for your needs. (You're welcome to borrow it from Garsington, but at £23 that doesn't make much sense.) Do you have the appropriate wiring diagrams? If not please send me a Private Message with your email address. Which engine and ECU do you have? Was the master switch set to isolate the battery? And did you set the immobiliser? Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area Representative Nick Bassett Posted April 22 Author Area Representative Share Posted April 22 (edited) Hi JK - it is a direct replacement Banner from Tayna. Yes, you're right, I probably should get a multimeter although how effective I'd be at using it I don't know! A friend has offered to pop around tonight and he knows how to operate one. I'm pretty sure I don't have a wiring diagram - not for this car anyway - I'll email you. Car is a Year 2000 Superlight R - Rover K VHPD running an Emerald K6 ECU. No immobiliser fitted - it was giving me problems, so removed in 2018 and been fine since. Re. the isolator switch it was left OFF on Saturday night, so whatever it is that is using the battery could happy carry on - at that time I didn't know I had a problem. The isolator is now switched ON and he battery completely disconnected. The only 'addition' the car has is a charging point for my mobile phone - everything else is standard Caterham I think. The only problem I've had in recent years was a Brise Axial starter motor I fitted - when starting it kept interfering with the Emerald, so I removed it and fitted the standard starter and it has been fine. Reading online, it seems others have had the same problem with the Brise, but without any firm conclusion as to what the problem was! Thank you. Edited April 22 by Nick Bassett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ainsley Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 Just check the connection from the battery to the charger is all good. Once or twice on my other car my CTEK showed a red light and all it turned out to be was a poor connection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Jonathan Kay Posted April 22 Member Share Posted April 22 22 minutes ago, Ainsley said: Once or twice on my other car my CTEK showed a red light and all it turned out to be was a poor connection. And I once had a CTEK smart conditioning charger that appeared to complete its cycle but wasn't charging the battery at all. That took me months to diagnose and left me even more cautious than before. Jonathan 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Jonathan Kay Posted April 22 Member Share Posted April 22 38 minutes ago, Nick Bassett said: ... it is a direct replacement Banner from Tayna. 1 Check the fluid levels and top-up if needed. 2 Disconnect everything from the battery and stick it on the charger. 3 When the multimeter arrives measure the battery voltage: • With nothing connected • Connected to the car but nothing explicitly turned on • Minimum during cranking • At 3,000 rpm. Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkD Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 Hi, I also have a similar car (Yr 2000 K-series) with a Banner battery, with regard to the 4 points above what readings should you normally expect to see?. I check fluid levels and just topped up last weekend but when measuring any readings I don't really know what I should be looking for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Jonathan Kay Posted April 22 Member Share Posted April 22 This is a quick DIY method for testing how the battery behaves under load and whether the car's charging system is working. The minimum voltage while cranking (the convenient DIY load) should be greater than 10.5 V. As well as measuring the condition of the battery this may help to explain what's wrong with the car as electronic components, including the ECU, can drop out below this. (The surprising thing is that this can happen although the cranking speed seems fine.) The voltage at 3,000 rpm is a test of the car's charging system, and should be greater than 14 V. Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkD Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 That's great, thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevehS3 Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 1 hour ago, Jonathan Kay said: And I once had a CTEK smart conditioning charger that appeared to complete its cycle but wasn't charging the battery at all. That took me months to diagnose and left me even more cautious than before. Jonathan That is an awful fault condition. Not something I would consider ever happening. I will check mine now and again to be sure it is charging correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave-canada-slr Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 I was having issues with my battery and took it to a local shop. They tested it with a battery tester and determines it needed to be replaced. It might be worth doing that as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Jonathan Kay Posted April 23 Member Share Posted April 23 9 hours ago, dave-canada-slr said: I was having issues with my battery and took it to a local shop. They tested it with a battery tester and determines it needed to be replaced. It might be worth doing that as well. Professionals have load testing kit that can measure the voltage and current at high current. The "minimum voltage during cranking" is a poor man's version of that, using the starter motor turning over the engine as the load. That can be done by any owner, and I don't know if the professional kit would add anything. And DIY means that you can follow it over time, and get an early warning of deterioration. I'd recommend doing that in the same way as checking oil and water (and battery fluid) levels. Jonathan PS: There isn't an offer of that kit in the equipment register, and i don't expect one. But we could do with some high voltage equipment to help with testing ignition systems... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area Representative Nick Bassett Posted May 22 Author Area Representative Share Posted May 22 To close the loop on this one - the problem was identified as a dodgy alternator that was drawing current from the battery. I think the mapping session I attended last Sept was much harder on the alternator than I realised. Now to sort out the next issue after a major breakdown on the fish n chip run... 😬 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Jonathan Kay Posted May 22 Member Share Posted May 22 Thanks for adding the answer. Does your master switch isolate the alternator from the battery, and would that fault explain what you observed accordingly? ... It might be possible to rebuild the existing alternator... and that approach means that it will fit the existing brackets and wiring! Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area Representative Nick Bassett Posted May 22 Author Area Representative Share Posted May 22 I'm not entirely sure tbh Jonathan - I know that the way that my isolator switch works, it doesn't isolate everything, as bits have been added over the years. Plan is to have the old alternator rebuilt and keep as a spare... for now I have bigger fish to fry though... 😟 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leadership Team Tigs Posted May 22 Leadership Team Share Posted May 22 What’s happened on the F&C run, Nick? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Jonathan Kay Posted May 22 Member Share Posted May 22 Thanks Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area Representative Nick Bassett Posted May 22 Author Area Representative Share Posted May 22 1 hour ago, Tigs said: What’s happened on the F&C run, Nick? On the way home on Sunday there might a slight metallic rattle - I stopped all seemed OK. Noise seemed to go away... coming out of Rhayader there was another funny noise, an acrid smell and then smoke coming out of the bonnet louvres. Quickly stopped and got out - oil being thrown out of the bellhousing. Called the RAC just after noon - a recovery truck finally showed up at 9pm... 🤬. Car now at home - it'll be an engine out job for sure - gawd knows what I'll find. 😟 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leadership Team SLR No.77 Posted May 22 Leadership Team Share Posted May 22 Nick, I stand to be corrected, but what you describe may be the result of scavenge pump failure resulting in the rear crank oil seal being blown out. Definitely check the crank bearings. Stu. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanRo Posted May 22 Share Posted May 22 Really sorry to hear that Nick. I hope it turns out to be less serious than expected. Dan 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area Representative Nick Bassett Posted May 22 Author Area Representative Share Posted May 22 Hi Stuart, I really hope you're wrong - I've just had a full rebuild by DVA and probably only covered about 1500 miles since then. Properly run in using running in oil etc. The gold DS pump was also rebuilt by Titan a few years back, although they said it was actually fine, so preventative maintenance really. Up until switch engine switch off on Sunday all temps and pressures were normal - I have a mech. oil pressure gauge. I was wondering if it was the rear engine seal that had blown? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leadership Team Tigs Posted May 22 Leadership Team Share Posted May 22 (edited) Crikey, doesn't sound good. Hopefully you get it sorted quickly and it's less serious than suspected! If you need any help, let me know. I have a trailer so if the whole car needs to go anywhere happy to help with that! Edited May 22 by Tigs 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area Representative Nick Bassett Posted May 22 Author Area Representative Share Posted May 22 11 minutes ago, Tigs said: Crikey, doesn't sound good. Hopefully you get it sorted quickly and it's less serious than suspected! If you need any help, let me know. I have a trailer so if the whole car needs to go anywhere happy to help with that! Thanks Alex, that’s a very kind offer 👍 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area Representative Golf Juliet Tango Posted May 22 Area Representative Share Posted May 22 Quote I think the mapping session I attended last Sept was much harder on the alternator than I realised. Mapping certainly stresses the engine & components far harder than most driving. The whole engine bay ends up really hot. Aerobod (James) commented on this in his engine rebuild thread (see page 9). I describe my driving of both the Crossflow & the 21, all road and relaxed, explaining that good low RPM performance is my most important criterium, then hear the engine at very high revs for ages & ages. OK, if an overtaking opportunity is available, I'll take it but these are the only times I hit maximum revs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aerobod - near CYYC Posted May 22 Share Posted May 22 42 minutes ago, Golf Juliet Tango said: Mapping certainly stresses the engine & components far harder than most driving. The whole engine bay ends up really hot. Aerobod (James) commented on this in his engine rebuild thread (see page 9). I describe my driving of both the Crossflow & the 21, all road and relaxed, explaining that good low RPM performance is my most important criterium, then hear the engine at very high revs for ages & ages. OK, if an overtaking opportunity is available, I'll take it but these are the only times I hit maximum revs. Yes definitely a risk of more heat in the engine compartment during mapping sessions even if using a large fan to blow air over the car, Stephen. I noticed after my full day session that the very vulnerable washer fluid bottle about 5cm away from my #4 exhaust primary has also melted somewhat, but not having had a windscreen on the car for years, I’m not too worried about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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