Spigot Bearing Fitment - 1.4K with 6 Speed Gearbox

[revilla]

I've been helping out with Roger Cumming's engine repairs.

The engine is a 1.6, but we have found it has a 1.4 crankshaft (it may have been a 1.4 originally), so the fitment for the spigot bearing is as for a 1.4.

The 1.4 crankshaft was drilled a lot deeper than the 1.8 crankshaft that I am used to looking at.

The spigot bearing is installed down to the full depth of the drilling in the crankshaft rather than being just inside the chamfered lip on the nose of the shaft:

Can anyone confirm whether this is the correct fitment for the spigot bearing on a 1.4? Presumably this fitment is used with a longer input shaft on the gearbox. Would a spigot bearing installed in the more usual position, towards the nose of the crank, still fit correctly with the longer input shaft (I don't know where along the shaft it is longer, is it just in the narrow portion which protrudes through the spigot bearing into the void in the crankshaft)? Can anyone give me a measurement to check to confirm that the six speed gearbox in the car has a long input shaft, preferably one that can be made with the bellhousing still attached to the box?

I will try myself to work out an approximate depth to the far side of the bearing relative to the bellhousing flange on the block so we can measure the protrusion of the input shaft beyond the bellhousing, but a confirmed measurement would be useful please.

[rj]

Andrew,

I've got my gearbox out at the moment and can measure the approximate length of the input shaft tomorrow.

I am pretty sure, though, that it's just the narrow (turned down) outer bit of the shaft that's longer and if you want to convert you simply cut it.

[revilla]

Thanks Regin

[Englishmaninwales]

Andrew,

I have a genuine CC supplied 1400 crank in storage, I’ll dig it out tomorrow and measure the depth of the spigot bearing fitment (if that helps?) 

I know that CC, back in the early 1990s, stripped the new 1400 engines and drilled the 1400 crank to suit the 6/5 speed FMS spigot.

Malcolm

[revilla]

Thanks for the info Malcolm and yes, that would be helpful.

[Richard Price]

Andrew,

Are you reusing the original crankshaft? If so, as I don't believe Roger had a problem with the clutch, does it matter?

In would agree that it is not normal, but, if it worked before, it should still work....

I think its highly likely that all 1600's are stamped "1400", as the engine design started as 1400, but, with 80mm pistons, was stretched to 1600 with no other changes.

I've just checked a spare 1600 crank I have (which is marked " 1400"), and its spigot bearing is fitted flush with the end. The crank is drilled to around 38mm, but I can only insert a spare input shaft I have by around 27mm before it bottoms out, as it is not drilled the full diameter for the full depth. 

[revilla]

Hi Richard,

Yes, the original crank is in very good condition and I will be reusing it. However Roger did mention to me when we were taking the engine out that he thought he was just beginning to feel the clutch dragging a bit.

I had a good look at the clutch itself when I removed it and I can't see anything wrong at all so I had a look at the spigot bearing and that's when I noticed the unusual (to me) fitment.

I really don't fancy trying to dig the spigot bearing out from that deep in the crank if I don't have to; whenever I've changed them before they've been so damn tight that none of the standard tricks for jacking them out hydraulically with grease or similar have ever worked and a slide hammer broke before it extracted one. In the past I've had to resort to partially cutting the front lip until I've been able to collapse the bearing inwards with a chisel and then extract it as shrapnel which is no fun and can chew up the bore in the crank a bit.

Poking my finger in there it all feels normal, the rollers all seem smooth and are turning and rolling freely so I'm tempted to apply a little grease and leave it alone, but I want to convince myself that the input shaft is properly supported and has enough reach to go right into the bearing in that position. If it does I'll just leave it alone. If not I'll have to bite the bullet.

At the end of the day, the clutch drag is probably rather more likely to have just been cable adjustment as it is to have been a spigot bearing issue.

Do spigot bearings actually fail very often? I should imagine they really only wear when declutching during gear changes but sprint cars are outside my experience and are probably pushed rather harder than my road car, so I'd be interested to hear if people have experienced any greater rate of failure. Would be a great shame to put the engine back in the car and find there was a spigot bearing issue requiring removal again.

Thanks for the info on the cranks. It does sound like at least the earlier 1.6 engines had cranks stamped as 1.4 with just the 80mm bore pistons, liners and rods to uprate them.

Andrew

[rj]

15k track miles and I didn't bother to replace it as it felt good.

[Wrightpayne]

Andrew,

I guess my concern would be if the gearbox has a shortened input shaft whether it goes far enough into the bearing.

Ian

[revilla]

As best I can measure it, from adding and subtracting a few measurements so there may be a little error either way, I think the end of the input shaft would need to protrude 31mm beyond the front flange of the bellhousing to just fully engage with the spigot bearing in its current position.

 

I'll ask Roger to put a straight edge across the front of the bellhousing and measure the protrusion.

[oilyhands]

FYI the 1400 and 1600 cranks are the same dimensionally, early 1.4 cranks are marked 1.4 and these were used for many 1.6 engines, very late 1.4/1.6 cranks are marked 1.4/1.6, early 1.4 cranks had a smaller spigot bearing hole, too small for the spigot shaft on the type ‘N’/‘9’ gearbox.

Oily

[revilla]

Thanks Dave.

By that logic we have an "early 1.4 crank" ... "used for ... 1.6 engines" so that makes sense.

But you say "early 1.4 cranks had a smaller spigot bearing hole, too small for the spigot shaft on the type ‘N’/‘9’ gearbox." - we have the correct diameter hole but drilled a lot deeper than the 1.8s I'm used to. I wonder if it has been drilled out to take the Ford bearing?

[p.mole1]

I had to cut down my input shaft on my 6 speed gearbox when I converted to 1.8. My car is 1995/94 vintage.

I can't remember how much I had to remove 10mm rings a bell I wish my crank had had the deeper the hole!

[p.mole1]

Just checked my 1.4 and the spigot bearing is the same but the hole is not counter sunk. The bearing looks like it may not be pressed quite as far down the hole. I can measure the depth if you need me to.

[rj]

The following is the input shaft off my 1.8 car:

[Englishmaninwales]

Andrew,

Just checked on my 1400 crank and the spigot bearing is installed 4.5mm from the outer face of the crank. The space for the spigot is 45 mm deep.

I suspect the FMS spigot in Roger’s car is not properly engaging the needle roller, hence clutch symptoms.

From my notes in 2005 when I ditched the 1400:

5 speed that came with my 1400 had a long FMS, it’s length from GB face = 207mm (the extra length was in the spigot; the clutch splines in the same location) and needed shortening by 8mm when I fitted an 1800 as the crank spigot space was 27 mm deep.

I have other measurements if you need.

Malcolm

 

[revilla]

Thanks Regin and Malcolm. Very helpful.

[rj]

Nothing to worry about. Gearbox was out, bellhousing off as the box has to go to R&R for refurbishment.