Fred68 Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 Hi there, Is someone using 1.8VVC 160HP on track without modifications, is it dangerous for the motor? What would you do to be safe? Cheers Fred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaseb Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 I believe Nick Brooks has used his on more than one occasion and he was fine, couldn't keep up with my XF obviously (yeh right 😬) and he's got the wrongs wings but apart from that... mail me if you want his e-mail address Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatcat Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 Have you got an apollo tank ? This is reckoned to be a worthwhile mod for track work. And always make sure that the oil is topped up - worth checking during the day as well as before. Keep an eye on the oil pressure, if it starts to drop on long sweeping bends then back off, the oil in the sump could sloshed up to one side and the pump could be sucking on nothing - not good. Keep an eye on the oil/water temperature and after a good thrash give the car a gentle lap to cool off before coming in. With mine (150bhp VVC) I tend not to rev it to the limit on the track partly out of mechanical sympathy and partly 'cos the last couple of hundred rpm don't contribute much anyway. Aaprt from all that, get out on the track, it's huge fun ! You might find the large front discs and 4 pot brakes are good along with uprated master cylinder, but these are not essential. Also search the archives for the many threads on tyres, all good info but you can start on whatever you currently run, just check they're in decent nick. Take a pump and a pressure guage to the track and try playing with the pressures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred68 Posted February 12, 2003 Author Share Posted February 12, 2003 Thanks guys, What about intensive track use? Cheers Fred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 The design of the VVC mechanism makes it vulnerable to any compromise of oil supply. The wet sump/Apollo route is OK, but the Apollo only removes the worst effects of oil aeration and does not prevent oil surge from occurring in the first place. The Caterham dry sump setup does not fit the VVC, but there is now a system available from Pace that would fit - although it is a bit fo a fiddle to fit. Dry sumping is a much better long term bet and will provide better temperature management as well as assured oil supply. Starting from the VVC you can achieve stunning power deliveries, based on simpler technology that is more suitable to track use (you junk all the VVC stuff) but the car will get noisier, thirstier and more difficult to get through emissions tests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Corb Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 Any engine which is subject to intensive track use is going to wear faster than normal. The VVC is a fairly std engine in terms of internals so I'd suggest that you subject it a more intensive service regime than would be the norm. You should keep a close eye on the oil consumption and condition of the liners (using a borescope). Check cylinder compressions etc. Change the oil and filter regularly (every 3000miles or two ? track days) using good quality synthetic. The oil will work better and stay in better condition if you control the temperature using an oil cooler. An oil to water (laminova type from Think Automotive) will help in two ways as it will bring the oil up to temp faster at first and regulate it close to water temperature. The Appollo tank system is a must as described above, this system also gives you an oil temp gauge and a larger mass of oil which damps out the swings in temperature (although without an oil cooler it takes ages to heat up!). Most engine damage is caused during warm up so always ensure that the OIL is up to temperature before caning it. This takes much longer than the water to warm up so dont use the coolant temp gauge as an indicator of when you can boot it! The K series also has problems with head gaskets, on the MGTF they fail when you've been blasting down the motorway and then stop to re fuel and the heat soak from the hot combustion chambers distorts the head, therefore always allow the engine to stabilise for a few minutes after each session before keying off. Another point to watch is the cam pullies, spanner check them occasionally as the unusual cam drive system can cause them to come loose! My VVC has been fine so far.... but I've only done a couple of track days. BC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiddy1 Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 Fred I use my VVC car for both track and for sprinting with no problems at all, I just did 200 odd miles round castle combe last saturday, great fun I have the apollow tank but am going to fit an oil cooler as after 10 or so laps the oil temp would stabalise at about 110 C, I have a Laminova on order as bob suggests (£185 from think automotive). Also fine sprinting but check the oil levels (when running) and change the oil every 6000 miles or 1 year,(the oil degrades in a year) which ever is sooner. and don't use mobil 1 as it is ****e, and not even really a synthetic oil. Just enjoy it and don't worry Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan T Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 I have done about 8 trackdays in my 150 bhp VVC (SV) with no problems (except for the dodgy driver 😬) but lately I have been worrying about the oil temp which especially on warm days gets quite high. As I plan to do about 8 days this year would it be wise to fit an oil cooler? I already have an Apollo. Cheers Jan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwyatt Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 tiddy1 - which Cat were you in on Saturday then? I was there in an Orange ex-Academy car modded to Roadsports B spec... My oil runs at around 110 degrees on track all the time (1.6K 115bhp with baffled sump and appollo system), this is not hot enough to cause a decent oil any problems. It is designed to run up to 130 or so. I change the oil a few times a year though, despite low overall mileages, probably every half dozen races or track days. Of my whole Academy crew of 50 cars with this engine last year, there was one persitent head gasket issue, which manifested itself very early - when running in - I'm not aware of any others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred68 Posted February 12, 2003 Author Share Posted February 12, 2003 Thank you all, If I understand good noone would really track a K serie Cat without Appolo and a dry sump would be better for intensive track use. Cheers Fred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 My oil runs at around 110 degrees on track all the time (1.6K 115bhp with baffled sump and appollo system), this is not hot enough to cause a decent oil any problems. It is designed to run up to 130 or so. Arf. The bulk temperature of oil is very different to its working temperature in the main and big end bearings. I have been told this could account for a 30 degree rise in temperature above a bulk temperature, depending on where it is measured. On top of which, you have temperature gradient issues for a head gasket which has oil at 110 degrees and 4 bar a few millimetres away from coolant at 88 degrees. It is certainly much kinder to the whole engine if you can maintain the oil temperatures a bit lower and I would suggest 90 degrees as being appropriate in most circumstances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiddy1 Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 Jwyatt, I was in the blue seven with the front wing missing! I am happy with 110 deg oil but as PC says this is the bulk temp so and I have measured +25 deg in the engine, it was also a pretty cold day so add 20 deg ambient temp and its getting pretty warm. Laminova will keep it down at 85-95 and will also help warm it up quickly, and its far cheaper than a dry sump. Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwyatt Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 I think my regs allow a Caterham oil cooler to be fitted but unless I am likely to see a power advantage I think I'm likely to stick to a rebuild every year or two, good oil changeg very regularly, and common sense in length of on-track sessions! The appollo system keeps plenty of oil out of the block and in the airflow, must be much cooler than a standard engine... What engine issues would hot oil cause - none of my lot seem to have any! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 Arf. Have you noticed how your radiator has lots of fins and thin channels to get all the coolant in contact with a heat exchanging surface. The Apollo tank is a big fat cylinder. Bu&&er all surface area. Sitting behind the radiator. On the hot side. Bu&&er all cooling. The pipes too and from the Apollo are rubber and are effectively heat insulated. Just moving a bulk of oil out of the block is not enough. The oil has to be in contact with large cool surface areas. Edited by - Peter Carmichael on 12 Feb 2003 19:03:41 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Corb Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 The Appollo does have a small cooling influence but it isn't enough. At Cadwell on a cool misty day I was getting up to 120°C ... not good. At Silverstone on a hot day the oil stayed at 110°C. I presume that the higher speed at Silverstone just made the difference. Anyway, if you dont give a monkeys and just want to go fast then stinking hot oil and cold coolant will give most power (but worst wear rate!!). I'm going to buy the oil cooler kit in a few weeks when I get around to my rebuild... Its such a faff fitting the Appolo kit that I wish I'd done the cooler at the same time!! BC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHRIS CLARK Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 The Laminova I have fitted is a great bit of kit (thanks Bob....what were you thinking of?). Warms oil up quicker and then stabilises temps (oil & water) very well.I only use car on road so don't subject it to the extremes you 'racy' lot do but it is still worth the minor effort to fit it. Good device. Recommended Clamshell Club Founder Member. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Corb Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 I dont need reminding about that now Chris. I've managed to trade both the 12" and 4" coolers for the appropriate one. I've just got to buy the fitting kit.... BC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan T Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 I assume there are different models of the Laminova cooler so which one should I go for for my car (150bhp VVC in an SV) 🤔 Cheers Jan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Corb Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 Go to http://www.laminova.se and search to rally / racing - products - c43. The middle size C43-182 is the one you want Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan T Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 Bob Thanks for this info. I will be ordering it this weekend. Jan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loisechr1 Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 I drive a VVC and used it may be for 40 track days over the last two years, completing over 10.000 kms on track. No problems! The engine is standard with only two minor changes: a direct K&N air filter, and suppresion of the rear silencer. The car has an oil cooler but no Apollo. Water temperature never went above 90° and oil pressure never went below 3 (kilo per something I guess) on the temp gauge. Of course, the first two laps of each session have to be done progressively so that the engine is at the right temperature before pushing it to the max (I personaly don't go over 6500 rev as it is useless.) Also always have the final lap being slow so that things start to cool down. Never park the car with the handbrake when brakes are hot... The maintenance program I follow is: -Tip oil before any track day -Change oil every two track days -Bleed brakes before any track day -Change brake fluid every two track days -Grease and tight up wheel bearing before every track day -Tighten wheel nuts before evry day with a dynamometric spanner -Check brake pads as they last at best two days -Check all suspension, direction bolts before and after -Check the rims for cracks and the tyres for blisters -Check brake lines carefully before and after -Check engine mounts before and after I guess you will quickly find that the car set up has some limitations for performance and you will start looking for this extra ooooooooomphhhh. I made numerous changes step by step with a Alfano stopwatch to monitor efficiency and results. These changes were made in comparaison with a similar VVC and similar driver developing a step behind so that we could compare What I did, ranked in best return on investment: -Bin the 16 inch wheels and the Avon, replace by 13 and Yoko 032. -Adjust camber and toe -Upgrade the front ARB from orange to red -Fit a rear ARB -Stiffer spring and adjustable platform with weight balancing (beautiful!) Then when the chassis is perfectly set up, brakes will not be up to the job. So: -Mintex pads -Dot 5+ fluid -Big brakes with four pots calipers on front -Big brakes on rear -Brake adjustment lever As said earlier, we did these changes and check carefully the results. The changes were not made in the order described above, but are ranked in what we consider as the best VFM. In the French club, no one use the Apollo and I never heard of a cavitation issue. Hope that helps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan T Posted February 15, 2003 Share Posted February 15, 2003 So that's me giving up the day job so as to fit in this servicing schedule This certainly seems like a 'belt and braces' regime and an interesting comment on the Apollo i.e. they don't fit them in France. The oil change frequency seems a bit extreme.....any views out there on this? Jan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Walker Posted February 15, 2003 Share Posted February 15, 2003 Brake pads burnt out in two trackdays?????????????/ If this is true then you are using the wrong type of friction material. Try going up a heat range ie if your on Mintex 1144 go to 1155 then 1177. Or better still some Pagid RS 14`s. Changing your oil after two track days 200miles is totally over the top unless you are using rubbish oil. A good quallity synthetic will last you 5000 miles plus Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted February 15, 2003 Share Posted February 15, 2003 The Apollo is not a placebo. It does work and the elimination of noise from the hydraulic tappets proves it. You have to wonder what potential damage the aeration could cause and weigh it up against the chances of getting away with it. I ran my Supersport engine on about 20 trackdays without an Apollo tank. It is still running (after a spell with an Apollo and now dry sumped). Pre-Apollo, if I didn't let it idle for a good couple of minutes before shutdown after a track session I would get the death rattle on startup. Can't say I ever heard rattles when it was running. With the Apollo, this did not occur. While cooling off after a run is still essential, the aeration obviously is not going on. This (in my opinion) is a good thing and worth the peace of mind. Even though the symptom of aeration comes from the tappets, the big killer is oil supply to the big ends. This could all end in disaster very quickly if you just failed to be lucky that one time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted February 15, 2003 Share Posted February 15, 2003 Some might consider it a worry gauge, but without an Apollo you don't get to see oil temperature. I am hearing more and more information that leads me to believe that the Caterham wet sump K does not manage its oil temperature at all well on track. Modern oils seem to cope, but I do worry about the affect this has on the sealing silicone bead on the head gasket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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