Removal of sump baffle. Mod required?

[JosephClarke]

Thanks Jonathan I shall take a look at that thread looks interesting.

Porco Rosso is my favorite film so it caught my eye when I saw the avatar.

Ta

 

[Mort]

Unrelated but is that Porco Rosso in your picture?

No.  It's something I found on t'internet, and thought was particularly appropriate to Sevening: the "Be seeing you" salute from The Prisoner, flying helmet and goggles, road hog implications, and it looks a bit like me too.   

[john milner]

"If you are worried by the oil surge threat, fit an Apollo tank. - See more at: http://www.lotus7.club/forum/techtalk/removal-sump-baffle-mod-required?page=1#sthash.DdVJKH9p.dpuf"

 I'm not sure this is correct. My understanding is that dry sump is the only reliable surge fix and that an Apollo takes bubbles out of the oil. From it's position I would guess the foam is 80% a cheapo alternative to an Apollo, 18% some protection against overfilling hitting the crank and 2% anti-surge.

My foam was binned even though I had changed it several times with no signs of breaking up. I decided that there is an as yet unknown cause to foam degradation and I didn't want it to happen to me. I do not track or thrash the car so I have not gone for Apollo or dry sump although I did fit a secondhand Helier anti-surge baffle (not perfect but better than nothing at the right price).

[Golf Juliet Tango]

I have a foam baffle in the sump of the VHPD in my 21. I am unworried about it, I trust my engine builder.

[Roadsport06]

John, if you read the archives you'll see people with a less damped pressure gauge having pressure drops on the road and damaging the bottom end. Apollo gives you a bit of oil reserve. The sump is so shallow for a k in a 7

[JosephClarke]

So if the baffle is removed is the advise to fit an apollo? Peril seems to lie with either choice :D

[Grandmaster Flatcap]

I fitted the Apollo on DVA's advice 

If the best heart surgeon suggested you need a pace maker...

[john milner]

I think the pressure drops only occur when pushing the car and not during normalish driving. I can't see how an Apollo provides a reserve that protects against surge. An Accusump provides a pressurised reserve to help protect against surge. A surge sloshes the oil away from the pickup so having more oil in the Apollo is not going to help. If anything too much oil in the sump is likely to be aerated which only gives the Apollo more work to do.

[21jigsaw]

The Caterham sump being shallow and of low volume suffers from oil surge and aeration. The reason for adding the  foam to reduce aeration of the oil hence keep control of the hydraulic tappets. Aeration of the oil feed to the hydraulic tappets acts much the same as a spring resulting in bounce, increased tappet clearance and loss of control of the valves resulting in either bent or the valve head dropping off through a bending fatigue mode of failure. When aerated oil contacts a solid object it  purges the air from the oil (burst the bubbles) ie swirl pots.. The foam / baffles were assessed by circles both left and right hand just under the rev limiter in low gear max cornering G,max braking and acceleration ,  oil as hot as possible noting oil pressure then returning to idle and listen for noisy tappets.

The apollo  cures the aeration and surge issues,  cheaper than dry sump

Dave

[oilyhands]

An Apollo partially protect against the 'affects' of surge, it doesn't prevent the surge from occurring. if surge occurs, then the pressure will fall away as an oil pump is not efficient when pumping air, however the Apollo tank is a reservoir of pressurised oil, it's true that it won't stay pressurised for long if the pump isn't delivering oil but there will be an oil supply rather than an air supply albeit at reduced pressure.

Oily (or not, as the case might be)

[john milner]

Thanks. I can now see how a pressurised Apollo could help reduce surge consequences as a secondary effect. It should also be considered that a bad secondary effect can be it acting as an always on oil cooler. An oil temperature gauge, lagging and/or a Laminova should at least be considered. If surge was the problem in the first place then it might be better to bite the bullet and get dry sumped.

[21jigsaw]

Quite so extra oil capacity is a great help with aeration and surge.The beauty of the apollo is that it does a good job of purging / bleeding off the aerated oil into the cam cover. The oil feed to the apollo directing the flow around the outer wall hence the aerated less dense oil forced to the centre and bled off the top to the cam cover.The oil pump pressure relief valve opening around the 1500 rev/min consequently has capacity in hand.

Dave

[L7 FST]

I used to run a wet sump SLR with an Apollo. I found that when I removed the foam baffle (as everyone said I should) I got very noticeable and consistent surge on track on left hand corners.  I then tried the DVA gasket mod, but that made no difference.  Finally I put the baffle back in, and - lo - the surge disappeared and OP was rock steady again in all conditions. I conclude the baffle fulfils a real and important function.  I then moved to a routine of replacing it every year, to minimise the risk of it breaking up.   This worked for me. 

[France North AR]

One question please:
I removed foam today and found gasket cut quite a lot probably to allow faster oil coming back to oil pick up.
Do you think I should cut new gasket as the previous one or drill  a pair of 10mm holes as preconised ?

Thanks !

 

 

[Jonathan Kay]

Unless there is something unusual about your engine I would ignore the old pattern and modify the new one in the same way as everyone else.

Jonathan

[john milner]

The big hole gasket is likely to cause the oil to be extra aerated. The person who did it probably hoped the Apollo would overcome this. If it does or not I can only guess. There was a thread a few years ago about someone doing this so it may be worth spending a couple of hours looking for it.

 

[JosephClarke]

I am looking to remove the foam this week when I do an oil change, I have had enough of worrying about it in there.

I have ordered a new sump gasket from caterham and will modify with two holes as advised.

Couple of questions

Am I correct in thinking that for normal road use I do not immediately need to add an Apollo tank when removing the foam? I will look to add one later in the year when budgets allow.

Does anyone have the torque settings for the Sump plug and the sump to block mounting bolts?

Thanks

[Roadsport06]

Your call on the apollo for road use. I've read someone damaging bottom end bearings from road use without an Apollo. The sump is very shallow. Sump bolts 25 N.m, long through bolts from bellhousing to sump 35-40N.m. Baffle plate nuts 10 N.m. Watch the sump plug, I add a soft copper, washer, torque to around 25 N.m. the pan is aluminium so you don't want to strip threads

[JosephClarke]

Ok thanks for heads up.

[France North AR]

Thanks for answers.
Gasket modified as per Oily advice
Foam was not damaged. Very very few and small foam parts have been found in oil pick up (0,5mm) but oil pressure is now 10lb better