Removal of sump baffle. Mod required?

[Rullingen]

If I want to permanently remove the sump baffle from my 2007 k series:

Do I need to modify the sump gasket? there are suggestions on the WWW that I do but I can't see why.

Do I replace the aluminum plate as it was without the baffle?

Thanks in advance, Rob.

[Jonathan Kay]

There are different strongly held views from well-respected and experienced Members. I don't know anywhere that they are collated so that you can make your choice. I think it would be very helpful to have something like that.

What have you found so far?

Jonathan

[Rullingen]

Absolutely nothing wrong. All very clean, I'm just a bit confused about these comments about making holes in the gasket.

[Jonathan Kay]

... I meant found on the web, and especially in the archives. :-)

Jonathan

[The_ASH]

There is a reference on what to do with pictures on the DVA website (I can't find it at present) but basically you just remove the yellow foam sheet and re-fit the plate, then drill two holes in the gasket before refitting the sump so that the deepest part of the triangular shelf that the gasket forms is able to drain into the sump especially when cornering hard, this ensures there is the best chance of there being some oil for the pump pickup to hoover up following a period of starvation.

I did this mod on my last car and noticed no change to the detriment from the previous OEM setup.

[CharlesElliott]

Do you 'need' to drill the holes? No, of course not. Might it help? Yes, it might.

To answer your questions:

- Yes, you need to retain the aluminum windage plate.

- On the gasket holes; if you've had the sump off before, you will see that the gasket forms a shelf from the windage plate which therefore slows the oil dropping into the sump and back to the pickup. So by drilling the holes, you retain the sump/windage plate combination that prevents the oil from thrown into the crank too much, but help the oil drain back to the pick up as quickly as possible.

Maybe I'll add at this point that I still have the foam in my engine too!

[Grandmaster Flatcap]

10 mm holes, thus:

 

[Rullingen]

Thanks Guys. You're Awesome.

Regards, Rob.

[Nigel R300]

Be careful when drilling the holes as it is metal and could tear quite easily ,I put it between two pieces of ply wood 

[Roger Ford]

Maybe I'll add at this point that I still have the foam in my engine too!

Did you ask Paul Freeman for his opinion when he rebuilt your engine?

[Wrightpayne]

I've watched the foam debate over the years (18+) and there is no rhyme or reason to the cause of it to disintegrate.

It can fall apart in no time and destroy an engine or be perfectly in tact after several years. I removed mine to avoid the risk. I had changed it and on removing both times was all in tact.

Dry sumped now so just the scavenge pump reliability to worry about!!

foam out and two holes in the gasket ledge is my advice

Ian

[CharlesElliott]

Far be it for me to represent Paul's views and we didn't really discuss it. He did say that if I sent him a new foam he would put it in when he rebuilt it. 

[JosephClarke]

Is there a collated thread of people who have had an engine failure caused by the foam disintegrating?

As a  new owner of a k series it's a bit of a worry! I assume the original purpose of the foam is to stop the oil swilling from side to side as easily in the sump?

Has caterham ever commented on the issue?

Tz

[oilyhands]

I have seen at least 25 engines with pickups partially or completely blocked with disintegrated foam baffles. All of these had damage to the rod bearings, some slight, some with almost complete disintegration. Most of the foam is clamped between the ally baffle and oil rail so it does very little to control surge.

Oily

[AntonyH]

Our K had the engine replaced (before our stewardship of the car) due to the foam disintegrating.

For some reason the then-owner didn't remove the foam from the new engine, but we have done since (and it was at that point crispy and starting to fall apart in places).

On the flip side, one of the mechanics at Caterham Midlands GTKY7 two years ago advised against removal for fear of oil surge. So, um... Obviously for road use it's very unlikely you'll ever pull anything like the g, for anything like as sustained a period, as you might on track, so possibly he was referring primarily to track usage. He also didn't say that he'd ever necessarily seen a K damaged by oil surge, if I recall correctly.

[Grandmaster Flatcap]

If you are worried by the oil surge threat, fit an Apollo tank.

[Burnside]

I removed the foam during an oil change and sump replacement last weekend - in addition I added a further 2 holes to the sump gasket either side of the left pre-existing hole in the gasket next to the suggested additional two holes.....if that makes sense - much debate be it right or wrong I have no foam and thus no "blockage" potential to the oil pickup. I'm impartial to be honest as I've not owned my car for a full year yet....ally plate retained as per suggestions also. 

[r300chris]

I also removed foam and drilled holes at weekend, using pieces of wood as per Nigel's comment, foam still in good condition after 4 years and approx 9k miles.

[CharlesElliott]

I'm not recommending the foam, just stating that mine is still there. I have a race engine and strictly the regs require us to retain it. Having said that, it's never gone crispy or blocked/partially blocked the pickup, but then I change the oil every 500 (race) miles and drop the sump every approx 1,000 miles - which is clearly a lot more than most!

[JosephClarke]

Thanks all, really does seem like it will be best to remove it for road use, I will see have read up on what is involved, a difficult topic as I don't want to damage the car either way, I realy only will use the car for road use so would seem best to get rid.

[Mort]

I only use mine on road.  Foam is changed every year, as opposed to the recommended (IIRC) 4 years/48000 miles.  Foam has always come out looking like new.

Not sure what causes the foam to go brittle.  Could be age / temperature.  Might be the type of oil used - I use Caterham branded synthetic, don't know if using a semi-synthetic might cause this.

I wish I had the answer as the foam was obviously designed to serve a purpose, and I'm hesitant to remove it, but the effects of failure don't bear thinking about either - hence my musing on the other thread about a non foam alternative.

[Nick Bassett]

I've removed my foam on the advice of DVA - he is the 'k' expert, so it seemed sensible to me taking his advice.

Many others on here have done the same.

[Mort]

Yes, I accept that. DVA's knowledge and experience is renowned.  I'd like to better understand the cause though - why some foam goes brittle, and some doesn't, and to have a better understanding of the perceived benefits so as to make an informed decision.

[JosephClarke]

Thanks, seems that for now I will remove it, as you have said though it would be good to know why it fails.

Unrelated but is that Porco Rosso in your picture?

[Jonathan Kay]

I don't think it is... but there are some fans over here in the Film Club...

Jonathan