Foam sump baffle for C20XE

[Bodhiseven]

Hi Guys,

Just another newbie question here. I've got a spare foam baffle that I would like to install but I thought I'd check to see the procedure before given it a try. Also, I would like to try this 94 HPC out on a track soon (nothing too high speed) but have heard that this engine has problems with oil surge. Should I be overly concerned?

 

Thansk in advance gents,

 

 

 

[ECR]

Such a long time since I had a wet sump so this is from a (failing) memory. Others might like to correct ....

Dropping the sump is no great problem, 6mm screws on the edge, 2 long ones buried in the fins of the sump at the rear, and of course 2 from the bottom of the bellhousing into the sump. Refitting is a reversal of this but IIRC, I ditched the cork gasket and sealed with silicone (which is the system used for the dry sump pan). DONT overdo the silicone, you dont want any dropping into the pan and maybe blocking oilways. There is an anaerobic loctite flange sealant that is also recommended for this but I cant recall the number (574 I think). Folk suggest screwing 2 short lengths of 6mm allthread into the block to aid alignment when offering the sump back up (remove them afterwards and replace with the normal screws). Whilst the sump is off, check that the oil pickup pipe is not too close to the bottom of the sump pan as they have been known to suck themslves to the pan and shut off oil supply. A couple of shallow notches with a file sorts this if its a problem.

No great issues with surge on track if running normal tyres and driving moderately. If you fit sticky tyres and get faster, look at fitting a dry sump. I'd fit a low pressure warning light which will flash at a pressure that tells you that you are getting near to problems. Cheap and easy to fit yourself (or get your local specialist to do it). Its good for peace of mind

[Paul Deslandes]

Over the years there have been a number of mods to the XE engine to help with oil surge and starvation and Roger has highlighted the one about the pickup pipe.  Changing the foam, as you are doing, is the most important service item as these foam baffles seem to break up rather rapidly when immersed in modern fully synthetic oil.

You can search the archives for other mods which include the cam cover baffle mod, detailed on the SBD website here, which helps stop oil getting trapped in the cam cover, rather than flowing back down to the sump.  If you search the BC archives you'll find lots of  other info from some years ago.

If you don't want to go to dry sump, which is an expensive option although a lot cheaper than a new engine, adding an Apollo tank increases the amount of oil in the system to help with surge.

Don't be tempted to overfill the engine with oil other than by a small amount as you'll get crank thrash which is where the crank hits the oil and heats it up.  I tried it once and the oil temp went up to over 120deg!  Not good.

Keep a close eye on the pressure, as Roger says with a big red warning light, and if it starts to drop much below normal after high speed cornering, ease right off and wait for the pressure to come back up to normal before hooning off again.

[Bodhiseven]

Thanks for the feedback guys,

 

I've not attempted the removal as of yet but will do so in accordance with your advice if in fact I don't need additional gaskets/parts etc. as I seem only to have the spare baffle itself. If gaskets bits are required to refit properly then I will likely make an order to Caterham to get the right bits before attempting to replce the baffle and only drive on the road which means I'd likely haveto wait until next season/year to get this car on a track.

 

Quick question, what is an appollo tank and how can this be fitted?

Thanks again guys,

 

 

 

 

[ECR]

It's a tall slim can about 6" diameter which forms part of the oil system. As I understand it, It fits just before the pump and holds a reserve of oil to cope with temporary surge. Never used one, and not sure where to buy ....

Fit a warning light first !

[Lotus Boy]

Quote Bodhiseven
"if in fact I don't need additional gaskets/parts etc. as I seem only to have the spare baffle itself
"

if you don't use silicone as ECR does - I've always used the gaskets as mine is standard wet sump - then you will need 2 x gaskets because there is a windage plate between the sump and the block, hence a gasket for either side.  You should see this when you stick your head under the car.  I used a tiny, and I really do mean tiny, amount of silicone to help keep the gaskets in place as I offered everything back up to the block.

Fully recommend ECR's suggestion of using some short 6mm studding and nuts to hold the sump up whilst you tighten everything up.

Cheers

David

oh and if you haven't already then I highly recommend a mechanical oil pressure gauge.  The standard senders are notoriously unreliable.  Gave myself two major scares before deciding to go mechanical.

 

[Bodhiseven]

Thanks again guys,

 

David - Can you pls explain what is studding and how to execute?

"Fully recommend ECR's suggestion of using some short 6mm studding and nuts to hold the sump up whilst you tighten everything up." 

Are you refering to the silicone beeding?

 

Thanks in advance,

 

 

[Lotus Boy]

Hi,

Sorry I wasn't clear enough. Nothing to do with silcine beeding - that is instead of gaskets if you are dry sumped as I gather.

Studding is an allthread bar such as this:

http://www.stainlessautomotivefastenings.co.uk/images/Studding%20Din%20975.jpg

You should be able to get it at DIY/hardware shops or ebay no doubt, often in metre lengths, which you can then cut to suit.

Basically when you are refitting everything after replacing the baffle, you are having to offer up a gasket, then a windage plate, another gasket and the sump to the block and unless you have 8 pairs of hands it is pretty tricky to support them all, line them up and screw in the sump bolts.

Where the studding comes in is to get some M6 studding, say 4 rods each 6-8cm long, screw them into four of the holes in the block.  What this then does is provide a guide to offer up the gaskets and sump. Once you have got everything lined up on the studding you can loosely hold up it all up with some nuts. This then frees your hands to screw in the other sump bolts and then remove the studding to do up the final four bolts.

Hope that helps explain a bit better.

David

[Bodhiseven]

Ah I see. Thank you for that clarifcation David. I think I might refrain from removing my sump until such time as I can get my hands on the proper gaskets as I'm fearing that once I put it all back together, I'll be cursed with more leaks. I suppose this means no track time for me until at least next season or when I get my hands on the gaskets as Caterham seems to be out of them.

[Paul Deslandes]

any motorfactor will have the gaskets, Caterham Cars are the last place to go for Vx engine spares.  Either that or go to your local Vauxhall/GM/Opel agent.

[Bodhiseven]

Thanks Paul, Unfortunately here in Toronto, Canada, we haven't any Opel or Vx dealers and i'm not sure GM here would be able to accommodate. That being said, might you know of any online shops that might carry these? I just checked underneath my car and it does appear there are some leaks, likely from the sump pan. Drat! Now it must be addressed :)

 

Thanks again Paul,

[Paul Deslandes]

Sorry, hadn't realised that you weren't in the UK.

If you can't find any online, ebay etc, you could try SBD who specialise in tuning these engines, amongst others, and send parts all over the world.  They should have gaskets of all types.  Either call them on +44 208 391 0121 or email

sbdmotorsport@btconnect.com

website is www.sbdev.co.uk

The proper OE gaskets are a fairly thick (2mm?) rubbery strip with aluminium pellet inserts to ensure that the gasket doesn't get crushed and squeezed out when the bolts are tightened.  Cheap cork gaskets don't have these and should be avoided.

Paul

[Bodhiseven]

you guys are the best! thanks Paul. I'll be sure to look them up.

[Lotus Boy]

If you have problems I could probably try to get some for you tomorrow and put them in the post to you?

Send me a Blatmail if you want to go down this route. 

Cheers

David

[Mavic82]

Aren't the gaskets the same as the 8v engine, but you need two not one. If so they are available in the U.S. And Canada as it was fitted to the Pontiac Le Mans and other Saturns I think.

[Bodhiseven]

Thanks again gents. I'll be attempting to track these down and likely start with local dealers first if it is thought that they can found here. Question, is there a specifc type of engine that I would ask for the dealer to reference to ensure they have the correct gaskets? I assume the Pontiac Lemans then?

[Bob Simon]

GM family II North American SOHC motor gasket set only includes the single pan gasket. No gasket for the windage tray. There may be other differences as well.

Daewoo Magnus (U20SED, sold in NA) gasket set may fit, but it's a crap shoot.

Order the C20XE gasket set from SBD and you'll get the right parts.

 

[Mavic82]

So this is the gasket for the 2.0l engine

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VAUXHALL-2-0L-2-2L-SUMP-GASKET-JJ-459E-/190409539421?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item2c554aff5d

The 1.8 gasket here

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VAUXHALL-OPEL-DAEWOO-1-8-2-0-SUMP-GASKET-JJ-385E-/200227246851?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item2e9e795303

Same gasket although official part number is different the fitments are the same as the blocks are the same., you just need two of them on the 2.0l as they go either side of the windage tray

Details of of the family of engines and fitments here

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_Family_II_engine

 

[Bodhiseven]

Super awesome again gents. I'll be ordering these this week. Not sure when I'll get the courage up to attempt this work myself. Likely when the overpowering urge to visit the track for the first time hits :)

[Bodhiseven]

I ordered two of the gaskets sets found on the ebay link. Thanks for all your help gents. When they arrive, I may ask for the procedure from someone who has executed such a task before I get started. Boy I'll be so nervous :)

[Bodhiseven]

I ordered two of the gaskets sets found on the ebay link. Thanks for all your help gents. When they arrive, I may ask for the procedure from someone who has executed such a task before I get started. Boy I'll be so nervous :)

[Bodhiseven]

Hello again gents,

 

Might any of you know the dimensions of the two bolts that attach the bell housing to the sump for this engine as it appears I have one missing and will need to find a replacement. It looks about two inches but I'm unsure of it's dimensions and the gent from Caterham needs to be able to advise me as to whether these are in stock.

 

Thanks again gents,

[Paul Deslandes]

I think they're M12 x 40mm 8.8 tensile rated caphead bolts with small (bolt head sized) spring washers.  You should be able to get them locally rather than having to order them from the UK as they're nothing special  Tighten to 45 lbft.  Hopefully someone else will confirm.

The build manual for your car can be found here if you need to see how it's put together.

Paul

[Bodhiseven]

Thanks Paul, I gathered from the PDF's that they are M10 x 45. Can that be right?

[Bodhiseven]

This link says M10 x 40.

 

Geez, I really don't know what I'm looking at lol....

 

 

http://www.fastgrandad.co.uk/documents/S3%201995%20Build%20Manual/Section%2010.%20Ford%20Engine%20and%20Gearbox%20install.pdf