Smithy77 Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 I'm told upgrading the standard 1.6K exhaust (120-140bhp models with primaries inside sideskin) with a free flowing system with primaries collecting outside the sideskin is a very worth while performance upgrade.Current set up is a mildly tuned supersport with 52mm TB, VVC plenum, DVA verniers and port match inlet ports, Z&F mapping session and standard exhaust.I've looked into the custom Powerspeed route but price is a major issue. I was wondering if opting for a second hand stock Caterham R3/4/500 exaust system would yield similar / equal gains to a Powerspeed or equivilant?Some parts have recently come up for sale near me and I'm considering whether it's worth a punt. Not a complete system but this silencer and collector are for sale. I would obviously need to source the primaries. What else would I need to complete the system?Ideally I would like a de-catted system that I can quickly swap a CAT into come MOT time - would the above parts lend to this?Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area Representative Nick Bassett Posted April 13, 2015 Area Representative Share Posted April 13, 2015 I've just upgraded my 1.4 SS by fitting a SL-R 4-2-1 manifold & silencer box - first impressions are the engine is breathing that much better and the rev counter appears to spin around the dial a little quicker - sounds good too I suspect that an exhaust like mine and the one you mention will help any future planned engine mods - I fitted mine as a precursor to a DVA upgrade I have planned (when I pull my finger out and drop the kit up to Dave)!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomB Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 Be careful buying bits and bobs hoping to build up a system. Most of the bits are not cross compatible with other systems, they are designed as one, from manifold to tail pipe. Reason I know this? A 7 inch SLR can wouldnt fit to my 4-1 race system as the inlet was too short. So just to avoid you wasting money and time, be very sure what system you want, and the parts that go with it, before parting with hard earned. Picking up a whole system may be easier in the long run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithy77 Posted April 13, 2015 Author Share Posted April 13, 2015 Tom, thanks for the advice, and this was my primary concern really. You look on the Caterham website and there is a complete myriad of Rover/VHPD exhaust parts and complete kits it is difficult to know what you're buying into. I suppose a call to Caterham will help to know what else you need to complete a system, but that's assuming the seller of the exhaust bits knows the correct part numbers in the first place...The problem is, in my experience it is quite rare to come across a complete second hand VHPD exhaust system. Nearly always they are broken up and sold as individual parts for whatever reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomB Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 As an example, the difference between my 4-1 race and the 4-2-1 SLR system is quite subtle when the kit is in bits. The SLR has shorter primaries than my system, because the middle 4-2-1 SLR collector is longer than my 4-1 collector. As such, this means the inlet on the silencer is also shorter on the SLR system. I borrowed a 6 inch silencer which was thought to fit my system, only to find it had too short an inlet. Couple these with distance selling and dimension not always being clear on photos means its quite tricky to build up a system from bits. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mankee Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 I did a similar thing to Tom, going from the 4-1 long-primary race system to the 4-2-1 SLR/VHPD system. At ~200bhp, there wasn't much difference to separate the two on the rolling road. I suspect that the flat-spot caused by a 4-1 system will manifest itself the higher up the bhp/rpm ranks you go. I'm extremely happy with the Caterham/Chesman 4-2-1 and it will be staying put to be hooked up to the 1.9.I would echo Tom's suggestion: buy a complete used system if you can. You never know what the L7C horders have at the back of their garages, so a wanted ad is well worth a punt. The other bonus with the Caterham/Chesman 4-2-1 system is that you can swap the collector over for a CAT sectioneach year. Again, it's just finding the bits you need! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithy77 Posted April 14, 2015 Author Share Posted April 14, 2015 Thanks for sharing gents. Think I may go down the full system route.Is there much to be lost/gained between the different R300, R400, R500, SLR or custom (Powerspeed or equivilant) system, or one which might be better suited to my engine spec?Tom - I take it that is your new exhaust shown in your profile pic? Very nice. Do all these VHPD systems use the front exhaust mount? I've only just recently drilled to fit my front mount, would hate for it then to be redundant!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomB Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 My system is the 4-1 Supersport race exhaust not the 4-2-1 SLR system, and does not use the front mount. I dont know which systems use the front mount as standard. My exhaust is the original one that came with the car, albeit with a 6 inch rather than 5 inch can to try and keep the noise down when I converted the induction to TBs. I doubt there is much between the RXXX/ SLR/Supersport race system, as Mankee suggests, if it wasnt obvious on the rolling road, it cant be that signficant. Maybe if you're chasing every last bit of power from a heavily modified engine, but for a mildly tuned engine on the road, I cant imagine it really signficant. I think the 4-1 race system produces more power at the top end of the rev scale, whereas the 4-2-1 systems have more mid range power. I think the important thing is to get away from the standard constrictive system with single pipe exiting the body, rather than get to hung up on whether its a RXX/SLR/4-1 race system. If you add a cat into the mix it get even more confusing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithy77 Posted April 15, 2015 Author Share Posted April 15, 2015 Tom, thanks. Pertinent point you mention about cats - what do you do come MOT time?Ideally, I would like a de-catted system which I can quickly swap a cat into relatively easilly for the MOT without unbolting the system at the head. Is this a common set up amoungst BCers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomB Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 I dont need to worry about MOT emissions due to the age of the car. Mine is a 1996 P plate, andI think pre-2000 kit built cars are visual smoke only. Good job too I suspect! Lots of more knowledgeable people on here than me in this respect and I bet there is loads in the archives or FAQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mankee Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 http://caterhamparts.co.uk/product.php?id_product=2930andhttp://caterhamparts.co.uk/product.php?id_product=1066But if you are spending that sort of wedge and waiting on parts supply, surely you might as well go for a Powerspeed and spec a silencer with a free-flow CAT built in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithy77 Posted April 15, 2015 Author Share Posted April 15, 2015 Mankee, that's exactly what I'm after, just second hand! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area Representative Nick Bassett Posted April 16, 2015 Area Representative Share Posted April 16, 2015 Smiffy7 - they do come up occasionally as I bought mine s/h, but you have to get in there quickly!Not cheap though - mine cost me 400 beer tokens which I think is about the going rate...Good luck - if you are ever in the Newbury area, happy to show you what they look like in the flesh all polished up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mankee Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 I paid half a bag of sand (£500) for my used SLR/VHPD system. And then proceeded to cut the silencer up after I got thrown off Bedford one lap into a trackday! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithy77 Posted April 17, 2015 Author Share Posted April 17, 2015 I was actually budgeting up to £4-500, so that's good then.Nick, when I'm next in the area I'll give you a shout for a nosey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithy77 Posted May 8, 2015 Author Share Posted May 8, 2015 I have been offered a complete 4-1 system from an R400, complete with interchangeable cat and by-pass pipe! Can anyone confirm, assuming the system is also from an imperial chassis (mine is a 2004 academy), that there should be no issues at all in getting it to fit? Am I right in thinking the R### models come with 2 lambda sensors, in which case do I need to block the hole for the latter sensor?I will obviously need to enlarge the hole through the side skin - any tips on doing so? Are there templates available, or is it easy to make one based on the car the exhaust is coming off?I will obviously run it without the cat - is it going to sound much different/louder? I hope that once fitted the gains in performance will be worth the money. I am slightly concerned about this flat spot in torque in the mid-range (inherent with the 4-1 configuration) that I keep reading about; it is actually the reason the seller is getting rid of it for a 4-2-1 powerspeed - after spending some money getting the cam timing sorted at DVA and having it re-mapped, he noticed two sizable flat spots in the torque curve. I hope I'm worrying about nothing and won't be disappointed..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
green george Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 It may be worth getting a quote from Graham at Exhaust By Design. I received a recent quote for my 1.6 Superlight with the following specification, "manifold would be 11/2" primaries x4 into a 4-2-1 slip collector with tags. Into a 2" system with a repackable silencer". The manifold will be £500 and £300 for the silencer. That price includes fitting but will necessitate extending the Lambda sensor loom and supplying a new exhaust gasket. this looked like a very competitive price and the company is recommended by Dave Andrews. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mankee Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 An EBD exhaust sounds like amazing value for money! Hmm. *scratches chin* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
green george Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 Not sure what your comment means, but if there is something I should be aware of please share, before I spend my hard earned cash on one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mankee Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 It means that I am tempted to upgrade, even though there is no need for me to! Keep us posted when you get your new exhaust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
green george Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 I am hesitating as I am concerned that is an increased risk of the annoying K Series click, which I don't get with the standard exhaust. I am also on the verge* of having forged pistons fitted along with DVA's K15 Supersport 150 kit which will cost quite a bit.... My wife has sanctioned this work and I think a new and (in truth) unnecessary exhaust may trigger a raised eye brow or two! * when I say on the verge I mean late January 2016 such is Dave Andrews lead time for this work at the moment!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Williams Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 Smiffy the RXXX will fit without any issues, yes you'll have to cut the side skin which is perfectly possible without a template just take your time and do it carefully. If you work on the basis that it's easy to make a hole bigger but impossible to make it smaller again all will be fine. I used a dremel with a large cutter (circa 10mm).Only one lambda connected to be connected to the ECU, the cat pipe has the second hole and your going to use the bypass pipe so not an issue. Either way blanking off the unused hole with a blank, spare lambda or even a spark plug (same thread I'm told) is quick and easy.As to the hole in the torque curve I don't think you'll notice it with your current state of tune and certainly won't be disappointed. The change from the weedy 4:1 inside the body collector to a proper 4:1 long primary system is huge and you will definitely notice it all in a good way. The difference between the 4:1 and 4:2:1 long primary systems is much more subtle particularly in a super sport spec, having said that an R400 type spec will definitely show a better torque curve with the 4:2:1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithy77 Posted May 9, 2015 Author Share Posted May 9, 2015 George - thanks for the recommendation for EBD exhausts. Unfortunately, I'm blatting on a tight budget so even a EBD system is way out of sights. This second hand option really is the only option, especially as I already told that myself the car doesn't need any further upgrades since the engine work last year! Adrian - thank you for the tips and reasurance about the flat spot. I think this has to be done and it will definitely be the last performance upgrade I do. Definitely. 100%. Will the lambda wiring loom need extending at all, and does the standard R400 system use the front exhaust mount? I've only recently gone to the trouble of fitting the front mount, so it will be annoying if it then won't be used! Looking at the kits on CC website it looks like only one mount is supplied... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Williams Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 I doubt the lambda wiring will need extending, using the boss on #4 primary should put it in the right place.The forward silencer mount isn't used so you'll have to cover up the hole that you're now using. A button headed stainless bolt is one option particularly with an Ali body or a Black plastic trim fastener can also be used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithy77 Posted May 10, 2015 Author Share Posted May 10, 2015 Hmmm, my 7 is titanium silver so either would stand out me thinks. Although, from looking at pictures, it looks like the silencer may hide it a bit.I thought about getting a bracket fabricated and welded onto the side of the silencer to use the front mount. Is this not something which is recommended? It seems an awful lot of weight to be supported off just one rear mount and cylinder head bolts (interesting to know if the standard K-series exhaust using two mounts is any heavier?), but it obviously works without any problems. I'm just wondering whether there is any disadvantage to adding the front bracket to the Rxxx system...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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