Upgrade Path for 1800K Series

[ben2]

Hi

• I own a 2004 Roadsport SV, supposedly producing around 140 hp. The engine has a slight knock when its cold, so its time for a bit of upgrading!
• I'm planning to VVC it by fitting a VVC head (along with associated ECU and wiring loom modification) which should give around 160hp (obviously the engine will be inspected and new pistions and liners fitted if required.)

 

• Has anyone done this and is this a reasonable approach to getting a bit more power?

 

• Thanks
• Mark

 

 

[Jonathan Kay]

Have you perused DVA Power and the K series page? Jonathan

[elan_fan]

The usual path goes something like

 

Emerald ecu

 

Jenvey throttle bodies

 

Ported head, cams and pistons

 

Exhaust

 

In your case I guess the pistons will come first.

You can then choose to have a ported head with your cams and an emerald. You would then be getting on for your vvc power but with the option of jenveys and cams in the future bringing the power figure to ~200hp.

 

Mine was a 1800k supersport.

 

Jenveys, emerald, verniers and airbox as a kit from dva. Diy fitted easy as Dave puts all the bits in the kit and loads of info on website and here. Ran around for a bit.

 

Next was vvc head, 285 cams/springs etc and tf160 pistons. Thats how it is now.

 

Vvc head needs special bits to convert to coventional cams and the cams are also different to non vvc head cams. Its all detailed on Dave Andrews website.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Golf Juliet Tango]

There is a VVC-R approach too. This will produce circa 185-190

[Nick Bassett]

Hi,

I'm just collecting items to do this very upgrade:

1.8 K

285H cams with vernier timing gear

DVA head

Forged pistons

Jenvey TBs

4-2-1 exhaust

If it helps, I know of someone with a set of new forged pistons & s/h Jenveys for sale...

Cheers

Nick

[oilyhands]

If you have stock pistons then they are not safe above 160BHP, certainly the VVC-R will break them.

if your ultimate aim is well over 160BHP then make sure you upgrwde your Pistons to forged or at the very least TF160.

Oily

[Mankee]

When you say "The engine has a slight knock when its cold", do you mean that the bottom end may need attention before you do anything else? I went the cheap skate route and bought a second hand complete MG TF VVC 160 engine from eBay, which is a good base if you don't want to go all out and fit forged pistons.

 

But it all snow-balled, I spent more money, made some mistakes that bent a load of valves while I was setting it up on the rolling road and have ended up with an engine that I'm incredibly pleased with. So much so, that I'm holding off on the 1.9 for the moment in case I'm a bit disappointed with it.

 

Am only just up the road from you in Ipswich and have engine crane, dial gauges, kettle and biscuits if you want a natter.

 

[ben2]

Hi

Firstly thank you for your comments.

The original plan was to go for around 160hp, so the original pistons would work, however having read some of the posts it loks like forged pistions would be the way to go whilst the engine is stripped. I'm trying to keep the costs sensible!

Mankee - the I'm convinced the knocking sound is a sticky tappet (which hasn't really got any worse over the last 3000 or so miles) The guy who is going to do the engine work for me thinks its piston slap (however this was a a brief play with then engine whilst static and warm). Either way head and pistons should sort. We ought to meet up sometime, tea and buscuits always welcome.

Nick I sent you a blat mail ref the Jenveys and pistons..

Thanks for your help

Mark

 

 

 

 

[David Brown]

Oily/Dave, you mention the 160bhp limit for standard pistons. Always wondered if that is for continuous running/racing at high revs or also applies to short overtaking bursts?

[oilyhands]

The RPM needed to attain 160BHP is usually the killer, with the stroke being as long as it is and the rod quite short the piston acceleration and deceleration is very high as is the mean piston speed. Couple that with the high thrust loads and a very short pistons and the narrow ring belt which produces very thin lands and you have a recipe for land disintegration which is the usual mode of failure.

 

I havent done any destruction testing as I have observed the affects of too high a rev limit from many SS engines with broken pistons. Rover had to fit tougher Pistons to the VVCS 160 engines as the stock ones were breaking up in testing. That is at 156BHP and 7200.

 

if you want to take the risk then that is your decision, however I cannot responsibly recommend it.

 

Oily

 

 

[David Brown]

Thanks Dave, was only curious. Have gone as far as I need on standard pistons. Just wondered about occasional overtaking blast to 7,500 versus continuous running but you really answered that with your comments on SS engines.

[Steve T]

Dave, in 2008 you upgraded my 1.8k which gave 190bhp at Dave Walker's and I have done about 8k miles (shamefully low I know) since incl 4 track days all on the original 140 standard Pistons. Rev limit set to 7,600.  The only reason we did not use forged Pistons is you didn't have any at the time, but we discussed that at the time and you said it ought to be ok, turns out, you were right ( so far anyway).

Do they tend to weaken over time and then fail from accumulative fatigue or do they just fail when their limit has been exceeded depending on how inherently strong they are?

I always get worried when you pop up occasionally and give advice that they are only good for 160bhp...have your views changed based on experience?

[Rob Walker]

Early EU2 K series engines pistons have been proven to be durable in tuned engines, EU3 engines mark the start of the piston problems and failures were common in the untuned race cars IIRC the pistons were upgraded as a precaution on the race cars.

[oilyhands]

Rob, that may simply be a quality or material issue, the Pistons themselves are identical. I have seen failures on early and late engines. The plain facts are that no stock non TF160 piston is immune over 160BHP or over 7200, you may be lucky, you may not, and fatigue will play its part as will the quality of the material and casting. Obviously if you take a chance then the results will be on your head. The situation is different for me as I have to warrant work and can only give advice where I am as certain as I can be of the outcome.

Oily

[ben2]

Hi

I thought I would give you an update on this, as I got the car back yesterday.

I went for the basic upgrade of fitting a VVC head, loom and ECU, sticking with the standard pistons. When the engine was out the bottom end was stripped and checked, the liners were a little oval, but in tolerance, so we refitted them.

Other upgrades we did whist the car was apart was to refurbish and rebalance the propshaft, change the clutch release bearing (clutch was like new) and fit a silicone hose set as the originals were 10 years old.

Initial impressions are good, at higher revs the cars performance dropped off significantly before, but now it takes off and you can really feel the VVC having an effect. Looking forward to doing some miles in it over Christmas.

The only downside I can see at the moment is the VVC cam is quite noisy at tickover. I'm told TADTS, and this seems to be the subject of many other threads. I'll see how I get on...

Does the old 1800 standard head, ECU and coils packs have any value? I will put them up in the for sale section at some point but have no idea of what to pitch them at?

Finally a quick note of thanks to everyone who offered advice, its much appreciated.

Cheers

Mark

 

 

 

 

[Mankee]

Mark, who did the work to the prop? Was it someone local to us and would you recommend them?

[ben2]

Hi Mankee

The prop was sent back to Bailey Morris in St Neots. Do they make them for Caterham?

The guy who rebuilt the engine organised it, he took a picture when it came back and it looked like brand new, completely repainted etc.

It certainly doesn't click when you roll the car back and forth, which it was before,  but I have only done about 10 miles around town in the since I collected it yesterday, it seems OK so far :-)

Cheers

 

Mark

 

[21jigsaw]

The pistons fitted in the MGF Trophy 160  were the 145 bhp VVC pistons. After completion of  high speed test  ( 200 hours at 6500 rev/min full throttle) post test inspection found cracks between the crown and top ring groove,  the  piston redesigned  for the VVC 160  in the TF and ZR (ECD3).identified by 160 on the piston crown.

VVCR is based on the 160VVC ecd3 engine running mems engine management 7300 max revs. 

[solstice]

Hi Mark, sounds like we did this at the same time, mine was a 120 roadsport, and is just finished as well. A few teething problems but we are getting to the bottom of those, I had my ECU de immobilized and mapped by Z&F the engine feels much more responsive, a worthwhile upgrade for the £240 he charges.

 

[Mankee]

Hi Mark. Thanks for the feedback on Bailey Morris. Enjoy the power hike!