HELP - L Shaped hose & water rail - Photo anyone?

[Guest]

Trying to do the final engine prep before attempting to fit the engine.

 

Have struggled away this afternoon and now have the rear diff attached to the car and the prop shaft is currently sat in the transmission tunnel but has yet to be bolted in place.

 

I'm presuming we can now try and fit the engine + gearbox into the car?

 

The manual is talking about fitting a large diameter L shaped hose onto the water outlet. Not sure if we are being thick but its not obvious what hose to use and I have no good photos to go on.

 

Anyone able to shed light on what this hose should look like? A picture of a SuperSport R engine bay would be really useful.

 

Many thanks

 

Tom

[CharlesElliott]

Is it this one?

[UremaW]

If its the stage of the manual when the talk about connecting the aluminium outlet to the water rail, then I had the same problem. Turns out on the duratec, they replaced the aluminium outlet with plastic (the box at the back of the head with all the outlets on it) and got rid of the water rail completely. It's all one long rubber pipe from the back of the head to the top of the radiator. You can't miss it - it's the biggest pipe in the kit and its the only one which isn't coated in vinyl.

[MartinH]

Its probably this one I can remember scratching my head over this when I built my Duratec R300 3 years ago. Would be nice if they updated the build manual by now!

 

Regarding build process, I think you should bolt your prop shaft to the diff now before attempting to get the engine in. Assume you have already bolted the gearbox to the engine? Dont worry about the water hoses until you have the engine in.

 

Cheers,

 

Martin

[Alan Reeves]

Tom when you fit the engine load up the hydraulic clutch....mine had a faulty seating within the bell housing and leaked like a sieve...we had to pull the engine out and get new parts...notheard of anyone else suffering but the part that the master cylinder sat in was modified second time around.....i also had a gearbox oil leak that ultimately was cc fault from new...i can explain that one to you

 

Feel free to mail

 

[nickhi]

Sorry for being off topic, but interested to know about Alan's leaking gearbox. Mine's a Sigma engine with 5 speed gearbox and just over 1000 miles now. I seem to have had a leak from somewhere around gearbox since collection. Don't know if it's a case of TADTS or a real problem.

[Guest]

Quoting UremaW: 

If its the stage of the manual when the talk about connecting the aluminium outlet to the water rail, then I had the same problem. Turns out on the duratec, they replaced the aluminium outlet with plastic (the box at the back of the head with all the outlets on it) and got rid of the water rail completely. It's all one long rubber pipe from the back of the head to the top of the radiator. You can't miss it - it's the biggest pipe in the kit and its the only one which isn't coated in vinyl.

 

Thats exactly the bit that I'm referring to yes. Glad to see its not me going mad. The go news is that the engine, gearbox, propshaft and diff are now all on the car. I see what you mean now about the plastic outlet, I have this too so thats good. I'll take a look and see if I can find the modified hose.

[Guest]

Quoting MartinH: 

Its probably this one I can remember scratching my head over this when I built my Duratec R300 3 years ago. Would be nice if they updated the build manual by now!

 

Regarding build process, I think you should bolt your prop shaft to the diff now before attempting to get the engine in. Assume you have already bolted the gearbox to the engine? Dont worry about the water hoses until you have the engine in.

 

Cheers,

 

Martin

 

Thanks Martin, I'll take a look for that one, thanks for sharing.

[CharlesElliott]

Quoting TomWoodis: 

The go news is that the engine, gearbox, propshaft and diff are now all on the car. I see what you mean now about the plastic outlet, I have this too so thats good. I'll take a look and see if I can find the modified hose.

 

That was quick!

[John Vine]

My word, Tom, the AG's giving you the run-around! I can see the confusion, though. I'm assuming that all new 2L Duratec models now have a plastic water outlet at the rear of the cylinder head (replacing the old aluminium moulding), and a long hose (that MartinH mentions ) replacing the old aluminium water rail (that UremaW mentions ).

 

Given that the version number of the current AG is 05.2012, it really is overdue for an update. For example, Section 7.2 describes the Roadsport 175 and R300 variants (the latter now replaced by the Supersport R). Section 7.2.1.2 says:

Engine preparation

 

The large diameter short 'L' shape hose should be fitted onto the aluminium water outlet located on the rear of the cylinder head, refer to Fig 68. Apply rubber lubricant to the long end of the hose and push over the outlet; rotate the hose until the short end sits along the LH side of the engine refer fig 68. Secure using a hose clip.

 

Apply rubber lubricant to the end of the water rail; pass the rail from the front of the engine, over the alternator, and under the curve of the plenum chamber. Insert the pipe into the short end of the ‘L’ shape hose and secure using a hose clip. Align the water rail mountings with the lugs under the Plenum chamber and secure using screws, nuts and washers provided.

 

NOTE

Water rail might have already been fitted to the engine.

 

Compare this with Setion 7.3.1.2 (for the R400), which says:

Engine preparation

 

The large diameter long shape ‘L’ hose should be fitted onto the plastic water outlet located on the rear of the cylinder head, refer to Figure 94. Apply rubber lubricant to the long end of the hose and push over the outlet; rotate the hose until the short end sits along the LH side of the engine refer figure 94. Secure using a hose clip.

Shouldn't these sections be the same?

 

JV

 

Edited by - John Vine on 26 Aug 2013 10:35:07

[Guest]

Hi John,

 

yes good detective work and well spotted. I agree, the R400 instructions make sense for my engine variant. I think this could be a case of needing a straight copy and paste in the assembly guide.

 

The other good bit of news is that I do indeed have that hose - hurrah.

 

Only issue is that the engine is now in place so access is a pain. I'm sure I'll get it in there though.

 

Thanks for all the help chaps,

 

Tom

[UremaW]

If you think access is a pain now, wait till you have to feed the other pipes and cables through the same area later! With any luck, you won't dislodge the washer bottle like i did. Refitting that with all the coolant pipework in place was an exercise in inventive swearing. :)

[pugwash]

Reply for Nickhi. My sigma engined 5 speed supersport had a tiny leak in the gearbox area from new. CC looked at it at the first 1000 mile service and did something then. It did continue with the odd drip however and CC has just replaced the gearbox to propshaft seal at the last (first 12 month) service.

 

If yours is a new car then definitely worth having a chat with James at CC factory.

 

[Guest]

Quoting UremaW: 

If you think access is a pain now, wait till you have to feed the other pipes and cables through the same area later! With any luck, you won't dislodge the washer bottle like i did. Refitting that with all the coolant pipework in place was an exercise in inventive swearing. :)

 

To be fair I've experienced that one myself already. Last night when the engine went in we were finding that the LH engine mount was fouling the bottle so we took it off its mount to make access a little easier. Trying to refit it with your hands underneath the plenum is a right pain in the wotsit. It wasn't what I needed at midnight either! I'm surprised its located there really as its somewhat hidden under the pipe work as a result

 

If you don't mind I have one question that I think you might be able to help with. I've just fitted the exhaust, primaries etc and have moved onto the part in the guide where it talks about the oil modine. It talks of drilling a bracket onto one

Of the chassis rails to the front of the car. I've found so far that large parts of what is in the manual have already been done (e.g cables to the brake switch) is this one of those areas or did you end up drilling holes to fit the bracket? The area I think it is suggesting to put it already has rivets into the side skin, presume if its to be fitted here I simply need to drill those out and replace?

[UremaW]

Yep the modine is already fitted. It's the little unit at the bottom of the block underneath the plenum and washer bottle. There's two pipe outlets on it, and a couple of cables. The only bracket you need to fit is for the oil breather bottle, which sits in the front near side of the engine bay, in front of the washer bottle. I spent a good day working all that lot out!

[Guest]

Quoting UremaW: 

Yep the modine is already fitted. It's the little unit at the bottom of the block underneath the plenum and washer bottle. There's two pipe outlets on it, and a couple of cables. The only bracket you need to fit is for the oil breather bottle, which sits in the front near side of the engine bay, in front of the washer bottle. I spent a good day working all that lot out!

 

Great stuff just wanted to double check.

 

Did you end up drilling out the rivets in order to fit that bracket then or did you just drill yourself some new holes?

[UremaW]

New holes. I was wary at first - attacking your dream car with a drill just feels wrong - but it was fine.

 

Other thing I meant to mention on your blog - save yourself some time and adjust the front suspension to its highest setting now (by adjusting for maximum preload). You'll only have to do it later otherwise, when you lower it off the axle stands and realise your sump sits 3cm off the road!

[Guest]

Cheers for that. Someone else mentioned the suspension as it happens so its already quite near its top setting but I will go the hole hog shortly. Did you have a C spanner in order to adjust them? I haven't seen one in the kit anywhere.

 

I've got one more question for you if you don't mind 😬

 

I noticed a previous post from you regarding your starting woes with the car. You'd added a photo of the terminals on the starter motor. I think I have stupidly put the red lead onto the wrong terminal but I can check again tomorrow. The bit I'm foxed by (as the manual is really bad here) is to do with some of the other wiring. The guide talks about having some earth leads that need to go onto the bulk head somewhere. The only leads i found were brown and had 2 ring connectors on the end of them. I was about to earth these to the chassis but held off given that they were brown!

 

Is the guide just plain wrong here and these leads are in fact supposed to connect to the positive terminal on the starter solenoid along with the positive from the battery?

 

Sorry for all the questions, just so frustrating that the guide is so unclear!

[UremaW]

No problem at all. I was only able to build the car by asking numerous questions on here, so I'm delighted to be able to pay something back.

 

Re C spanner, I didn't get one either, but I improvised by using a drill bit (6mm I think). Remember to wrap the sharp bits in duck tape first or you'll end up with a messed up hand. Ask me how I know that...

 

Re starter wiring. It's was another thing that took days to get right as the manual is crap. Best thing is it I take some photos tonight and post them on here for you.

[Alan Reeves]

Nick,

 

the leak was from the gearbox shaft ( now I am going to have to ask Richard at Automotive eng for the specifics as he took eng/box out and we instantly saw what the issue was).

 

I had the leak from the start but on a duratech and a year latter decided to take it out etc and fix.

 

The seal was busted from the off as its an area you dont touch in a build. CC would not pay up though

 

CC also tried to bodge by filling the gap at the bottom of the box/bellhousing which a) didnt work b) would ultimately have caused a big issue with feeding into the clutch area.

 

The boxes are the same so who knows what the issue is? unfortunately if its like mine you end up taking it out to find the culprit.

 

 

[John Vine]

Quoting TomWoodis: 

I think I have stupidly put the red lead onto the wrong terminal but I can check again tomorrow. The bit I'm foxed by (as the manual is really bad here) is to do with some of the other wiring. The guide talks about having some earth leads that need to go onto the bulk head somewhere. The only leads i found were brown and had 2 ring connectors on the end of them. I was about to earth these to the chassis but held off given that they were brown!

 

Is the guide just plain wrong here and these leads are in fact supposed to connect to the positive terminal on the starter solenoid along with the positive from the battery?

The big red lead from the battery (or master switch if you have one) goes to the fat terminal post furthest from the starter motor. The fat brown cable from the alternator, plus the two brown wires, also go to this terminal. The white/red wire (solenoid control wire) goes to the small terminal. UremaW's excellent photo shows how. If you connect the big red wire to the other fat terminal, you bypass the solenoid altogether, and the starter will run continuously!

 

Re the various earth wires, the ones you need to attach to a suitable point on the bulkhead should all be black. Have you found others?

 

JV

[Guest]

Many thanks for the responses all.

 

John - thanks for clarifying its as I thought then. It was that photo you referenced that got me realising id done it wrong.

 

I have found 2 brown wires Reasonably long. These appear to be the ones that go to to the starter solenoid I think so the ones I'm missing are the earth cables that are mentioned in the assembly guide which are supposed to go onto the bulk head somewhere. I'll have another look, could be they are already attached for me.

 

I'll be sure to redo the wiring on the starter motor in that case. Don't want it running continuously After all.

 

Cheers

 

Tom

[John Vine]

Hi Tom,

 

The only unattached (non-lighting) earth leads I'm aware of are:

 

# Wire between engine and near-side engine-to-chassis mount (black)

# Battery to bellhousing (black)

# Main engine loom (black) -- is this the one you've found? Have you found others?

 

On the subject of wiring, it's worth checking that you have a protective rubber grommet fitted where the loom enters the coil cover (see Fig 99 on p117 of the AG). The photo doesn't show one -- poor engineering/electrical practice IMHO. If, like me, you don't notice this, in about 2K miles you will wonder why the loom at that point sports a number of bare wires! See here.

 

JV

[Guest]

Hi John,

 

I've got a rubber grommet there so thats good. The loom also appears to be surrounded in some stuff to avoid chafing.

 

In terms of cables....

 

Battery to Bell Housing is fine, ive got that one attached, just need to attach to the battery.

 

I also have the lead thats attached to the engine mount. The other end is currently unattached but I realise its an earth for the engine. Where is the best place to fix it onto - Bell Housing again?

 

The one I cant find i think is the main engine loom one that is mentioned in the manual. There were only a few loose wires that I found which were as follows:

 

cable + plug - goes to Lambda sensor (must be the right one as its the only plug that shape)

Cable with 2 brown ring connectors on - Go to Starter Solenoid

Main engine loom (massive plug) - attached together

Connectors for the brake switch (light green wires) - was done for me by Caterham so that must be OK

 

The only loose wires I can see that I still have are shown in this image below:

 

 

I presume the copper coloured plug is some kind of temp sensor? Where's that supposed to go, any ideas?

 

[Guest]

Here is a picture of the brown wires that I attached to the solenoid.

 

 

I've not found any black wires so I'm a little confused.