C20XE oil level

[Trotsky]

I have read a couple of threads in archives re oil level on XE engines and noisey tappets,

I fill mine to the max mark on the dip stick, but have read others saying 2cm above that is correct. is there a definate answer to the correct dipstick level.

 

Trotsky N7 HPC

[Paul Deslandes]

Trotsky

 

do you have the Caterham dipstick which has been modified with a higher max level marked on it? Its easy to tell the difference because the CC one has had the original word 'Max' ground off so you have a flat ground face at the end of the stick. You shouldn't fill the sump much above the proper max level as this will result in the crank thrashing around in the oil causing loss of power, excessive fuel consumption and raised oil temperature - none of them good.

 

If you have noisy tappets, first check your oil pressure which should be ~60psi (4bar) when running at anything much above tickover. The oil pressure gauge sensor is notoriously unreliable so if you can, fit a mechanical gauge to check it, if only temporarily.

 

The most likely cause of noisy tappets and low oil pressure on a reasonably well maintained road car is a clogged foam baffle in the sump. This should be changed every couple of years or 5k miles max. Track cars have problems for other reasons and often end up going for dry sump which is the only long term cure.

 

If you search the archive you'll find the correct measurements for the dip stick and more on the foam baffle.If you get stuck sing out and we'll guide you through it. You could start with this one if you haven't read it already.

 

Paul

 

 

 

Edited by - Paul Deslandes on 26 Feb 2010 15:35:47

[kenny.]

And if by chance you are running 0/40 Mobil one then ditch it for some 10/40 of any brand .........my hydraulic liftered HPC used to sound like a sack of spanners with that stuff in it.

 

Kenny

HPC 218 Evo

[Lotus Boy]

I fill mine a couple of mm above the max mark as you say. I have one tappet that is a bit noisy when cold but the noise disappears when everything warms up. I keep toying with replacing but I understand it is a bit of a pain identifying the culprit and that it is best to change them all but I'm not really at that stage yet.

 

I had a a scary experience not long after owning my Seven where I had unknowingly over filled the oil, was on a blat, went round a corner quite quicky and then panicked as smoke poured out of the exhaust as oil was sloshed through the inlet breather thanks to the Vauxhall's "eco friendly" rocker baffle. I've now done the SBD mod so no more scares! But what it did was help me find it's natural oil fill level 😬

 

5w/30 is the correct GM oil but Caterham use Comma Syner-G which is 5w/40. I have to say I think mine is better on the Comma. You could also try Mobil Motorsport 15w/50 which is recommended by all the VX big boys (ooh er) on here.

 

My car was built in 1994 and I bought it in 2004. I had a full service carried out and had the foam baffle changed. To my horror I discovered that the foam baffle had never been changed in those 10 years. It was like chinese seaweed but thankfully never caused me an issue and once the engine was flushed it has been fine...but as Paul says, if you haven't checked it then do so and replace it.

 

As a 'fingers crossed for a quick solution' you could try using a cleaning additive like Forte's Top End Treatment, which was recommended to me by Hyperion. This is supposed to clean up the deposits that stick to the lifters etc.

 

Cheers

 

Dave

 

Edited by - Lotus Boy on 27 Feb 2010 08:42:48

[Trotsky]

Thanks folks, I have been down the oil grade route and am currently using mobil 1 10/40.

this prolonged crap weather has seen me stripping things off in boredom, but has been interesting in revealing jobs to do, Cam cover is off as is cam belt cover, going to do the SBD mod today.I find my catch tank always has plenty in it , like it always seems full after a couple of fast blats. just received a new baffle from CC along with a new sump Gasket. I have never replaced this in the 2 years 17000 miles I have done so am expecting sea weed , going to check the oil pick up pipe and add grooves to bottom of that too while its got sump off.

Not checked to see if dipstick been modified , will do so later

I have noted that the Cam belt is in excellent nick and looks brand new, not sure when it was done, car done 77000 miles 17000 by me so may have been done by previous owner.

also spotted the plastic pulleys are on my cars, again look in excellent nick, what has been the problem with these? have read they should be changed, tho mine seem to have coped well enough with relatively high mileage. I take it its a cam belt off job to change these.

 

I don't want to have to change the lifters if I can help it, as its not something i'm equipped (knowledge wise) to do myself so will see what new baffle and com cover mod reveal,

 

still not got new fuel pump yet as I cant decide which one to get no running engine so i wont be able to check effect of changes to sump and cam cover till that jobs sorted, thinking towards a webcon one

 

Trotsky N7 HPC

[kenny.]

Bloody 'ell Trotsky. Changing the sump gasket is a harder job than than changing the cam followers 😳

 

If you can do that you'd eat the follower job

 

Kenny

HPC 218 Evo

[Trotsky]

its resetting the cam timing that id struggle with having never got that far into an engine before, it just scares me a bit 😬

 

Trotsky N7 HPC

[kenny.]

Good luck with the sump gasket then ........when I did the last one and came back out from the garage, the Mrs. asked me who "ucuncha" was

 

Kenny

HPC 218 Evo

[Trotsky]

what are the dificulties with the sump Gasket, do I need a body condom...with peepholes

any tips more than welcome 😬

 

Trotsky N7 HPC

[Trotsky]

 

bugger just read some threads on sump gasket and seems there are 2 of em and ive only got one, off to a good start then 😬

Trotsky N7 HPC

 

Edited by - Trotsky on 27 Feb 2010 10:27:17

 

Edited by - Trotsky on 27 Feb 2010 10:28:04

[Dickie Normuss]

The sump gaskets are indeed good fun trying to get their holes to line up with those in the sump, windage plane and block, expect some cursing 😬. On the oil level I fill mine to the max mark, anything over this gets blown out anyway and gets dumped via a spectacular cloud out the exhaust, I pity the poor biker who was behind me when I discovered that party trick. Mine's noisy too on 0/40 so will be changing soon to 10/40

 

VX HPC - Loud and proud here

Adding power makes you faster on the straights. Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere

[Paul Deslandes]

It sounds as though you're well on the way to fixing your rattling tappets.

 

One tip when you replace the sump, although in general you don't need to use sealant on the gaskets, there are a couple of places that can weep if you don't just add a small amount. At the front of the engine, the oil pump is bolted to the front of the block and the sump is bolted up to the aluminium pump casting. Its a good idea to smear a bit of sealant where the pump body and block join, otherwise there is a risk that the gasket might not quite seal here on its own. You only need it where the upper gasket mates with the two interfaces. You'll see what I mean when you're in there. Similarly, the rear main bearing cap fits into a large gap at the back of the block so, again you have two interfaces that can weep. In fact, in the same place, the bearing cap also has a ~4mm semi-circular groove up each side which are filled with sealant and the ends of these grooves are visible with the sump off. Make sure that the grooves are still filled at the ends and that the sealant hasn't been disturbed when the sump came off. If you pay attention to these points you should have a leak free bottom end.

 

Getting the sump, two gaskets and the baffle plate to line up will try your patience. An electric screwdriver with an allen bit to fit the sump bolts, plus an assistant, can make life a hell of a lot easier.

 

 

[Trotsky]

cheers folks for some good advice I have had a fun filled afternoon getting the sealant off the inside of the cam cover, oh how ive laughed, mostly off now bar a few stubborn bits in the corners, has anyone discovered a suitable solvent to get the last bits off?

 

I need another sump gasket as I only have the 1, are they a standard gasket available from GM dealers or specific to Caterham sump, i would have thought the interface between bottom of block would be the same?

 

Trotsky N7 HPC

[Paul Deslandes]

they're both the same and standard GM fit. I'm a bit disappointed that CC didn't tell you that you needed two.

 

The only solvent is elbow grease unfortunately.

 

Edited by - Paul Deslandes on 27 Feb 2010 21:32:18

[alan c]

The trick I did to line up the gaskets etc was to use some threaded stud of the right size in four locations, got it all lined up and held in position and then started putting in the proper sump bolts.

Alan

[Paul Deslandes]

top tip Alan

 

 

[Trotsky]

I was disappointed too but was amazed at the speed of delivery, ordered on line at 4pm and they arrived next morning about 10.30 ,Alan, I like the threaded stud idea for lining up the holes .

 

Trotsky N7 HPC

[Trotsky]

Well the sump is now off and everything cleaned up underneath, spotted some flakey pastry on the chassis that needs a rub down and repaint. cleaned up all the surfaces and sump pan. modded the pick up pipe, there was indeed marks on the sump to show it has been touching, so that's sorted, while upside down wiping the engine block of oil and cack I was chuffed to spot COSCAST stamped on the underside of the exhaust side of the head, so it appears I have a later LN engine with the earlier coscast and therefore better head

Is it possible to tell the type of piston fitted from below? I understand earlier engines had Cosworth pistons which were better Qaulity. I can see up above the crank to the underside of pistons, I think. The new headtorch on monday with my multi tool will come in handy 😬 Cheers Stuart

 

All the sealent is now off the inside of the now modded Cam cover "a toil of a pleasure" as my Dad would say

 

Eeee i'm loving this fettling caper 😬

Still not ordered a new fuel pump

 

Trotsky N7 HPC

 

Edited by - Trotsky on 28 Feb 2010 22:53:49

[Paul McKenzie]

The earlier forged pistons are Mahle and have a flat skirt. You should be able to see this with the pistons in the bores You might also be able to see "Mahle" stamped on the inside of the crown.

 

Paul

 

Edited by - Paul McKenzie on 1 Mar 2010 14:40:07

[Trotsky]

Update time, Everything is back together again and to summarise I have , refit sump with new baffle, done the SBD mod to the cam cover, new filter and oil, all gaskets replaced, refilled oil about 1cm above original mark on dip stick. everything fine except faulty oil pressure sender ( replacement ordered) using mobil 1 15-50 full synth oil. but still very tappety, appears a lot noisier in one particular place when listening to tappets with the good old wooden spoon / touching cam cover technique.

 

I would be grateful of some advice on how to go about locating the faulty followers( presume use of feeler gauge needed) and how to change them( cams out?). if money was no object i would do them all but they cost @£17 + vat each and as I am accumulating a longer by the day list of bits that need replacing I'm having to watch the budget, having noticed that 1 rear shock and 1 front shock are weaping oil 🙆🏻

 

By the way the 4 threaded bits of bar made refitting the sump and windage plate gaskets a doddle 10 minute job

Trotsky N7 HPC

 

Edited by - Trotsky on 12 Mar 2010 12:42:18

[Paul Deslandes]

To be honest I wouldn't run it until you know that you have reasonable oil pressure. With all the good work you have done, the tappets should be quiet now although they may take a while to refill with oil and go quiet. Over the years I've helped with a number of these engines and, including my own, have changed the hydraulic tappets but I'm not convinced its really been necessary. I do have a bag full of second hand ones that you can have for £20 plus postage. They came out of my engine when I went solid tappets and were okay then.

 

Once you know that the oil pressure is okay, i.e. 60 psi at anything above idle, you can drive it for a while and see if the tappets go quiet, As I say, this can take quite a while as they only have a very small hole for the oil to enter and refill them under pressure. They will retain the old oil for ages unless they're really shot.

 

You can only really localise the noise by listening with your ear and a rod against the cam cover, as you're doing. You need to get the cams off and lift the followers out, immerse them in oil, pumping the plunger up and down to make sure its full and then apply pressure to see if any are quicker to deflate than the others. Do them one at a time or note carefully which one came off which valve as its better that they should go back into the same bore. I don't think that using a feeler gauge would tell you much as the followers are in intimate contact with the cams. Pushing in a feeler gauge would just push a bit of oil out of the follower. The thicker the feeler, the more oil that would be forced out.

 

Forgive me if you've done this before but, if you do remove the cams, make sure the crank is at 90deg, i.e. all pistons at halfway, so that, should one of the camshafts wang around when you take the belt off, a valve doesn't open and hit a piston. Re-assembly and timing is not too difficult with the standard pulleys as all the marks are on the cam cover and you have the crank pointer to set tdc.

 

Of course, now would be a good time to get some saucy cams and verniers...........

 

Edited to add, I think SBD do new followers for a lot less than GM so might be worth looking at their price list or giving them a call. 0208 391 0121, www.sbdev.co.uk.

 

Paul

 

 

Edited by - Paul Deslandes on 12 Mar 2010 13:30:43

[Garibaldi]

Just in case you decide to go the whole hog and replace the tappets

 

I have a set of new unfitted SBD supplied tappets for the XE that were bought for another project but not used...

They are OEM manufacture but according to Steve are slightly lighter than std item...

If you are interested drop me a line...

Gary

[Trotsky]

Thanks again for some good advice and tips, much appreciated. I will get this oil pressure sensor sorted first then and once I have oil pressure registering I'll do as you suggest Paul and run it for a bit to see how things Pan out. already got the saucy cams and verniers 😬 they where a pleasant surprise when I took off the belt cover

 

oh and thanks for the offer of the lifters, will bear it in mind.

 

Trotsky N7 HPC