ross.mcw Posted July 16, 2002 Share Posted July 16, 2002 Hi, (I've got an Ariel Atom, so forgive my post here but I was directed here by another forum). Has anyone with a K series engine ever experienced a problem where the middle two cylinders simply won't fire? It's a bog standard K16 (not VHPD, not VVC) with the standard Rover ECU/AS5 kit. I've checked compression, leads, plugs, injectors, dizzy cap and rotor arm and they all basically seem fine but the middle two cylinders just will not run (I'm going to actually swap the dizzy cap, rotor arm and leads tonight just in case). I'm suspecting the Rover MEMS ECU, but can't work out why it would suddenly do that after just being sat in the garage for a few weeks (last outing was at Oulton park where it ran absolutely fine). One suggestion I've had is that the ECU has gone into a 'get you home' mode - could this be correct? Any ideas? I'm going out of mind trying to fix it. Cheers, Ross. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murph7355 Posted July 16, 2002 Share Posted July 16, 2002 If you're swapping all the obvious stuff then it could well be the ECU throwing a wobbler, but I don't think there is a "get you home" setting on it? There is, however, a reset technique you can try. From memory this involves fully depressing the accelerator 5 times, I think with the engine immobilised. If you search this forum for "MEMS reset" you should find it. If the new ignition bits and/or a reset don't do it I'm not sure what it could be, but would sound like a "take it back" job to me. How have you found the car generally? Interesting motor but occasionally gets adverse comments about suspension set up in the press?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allen Payne Posted July 16, 2002 Share Posted July 16, 2002 I think that the injectors are paired together so it might be that the signal to that the middle pair of injectors is missing - Check the wiring back to the ECU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ross.mcw Posted July 16, 2002 Author Share Posted July 16, 2002 Thanks for the comments guys. If the injectors are paired wiring wise, I bet that would be it. And if it was I'd have to suspect a **** connection in the wiring loom connectors as it's all a bit thrown together to be honest which is disappointing quality wise. >How have you found the car generally? Interesting motor but occasionally gets adverse comments >about suspension set up in the press?? Great! It's everything I'd hoped for and very usable on normal roads which I don't think you could say about something like a Radical. I certainly think there's a lot of improvment to be made to the rear suspension although you can adjust it all to you hearts content anyhow (if you know what you're doing). On the track, it's great fun and quick enough although after a trackday at Oulton, I fancy a bit more top end power now - 118bhp is fine on the road though. Engineering wise, it's excellent, but I think Ariel need to look at the finishing and quality control a bit as there's been a few problems I've had but nothing major (except this current problem of course). Design wise, it's mint. Pictures don't do it justice really and from some angles it can look odd. On the road though it's a real traffic stopper. I regularly take it up the Cat & Fiddle run in Derbyshire and it's just made for that road. Cheers, Ross. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murph7355 Posted July 16, 2002 Share Posted July 16, 2002 Can you not take all the injectors off and stick them in a bucket to test them? Assuming you don't smoke. Should be quick and easy to see if they aren't working. "...118bhp is fine on the road though..." - give it another couple of weeks! The good news is that if you have suitably sized pockets you can get pretty much whatever power you want out the K (Evo reckon the VHPD engine didn't make the car any better mind). Do you do Bookatrack days? Which firms do you use? I'd like to see one in action and you don't see too many around... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ross.mcw Posted July 16, 2002 Author Share Posted July 16, 2002 Hi Andy, >Can you not take all the injectors off and stick them in a bucket to test them? Assuming you don't >smoke. Should be quick and easy to see if they aren't working. I've actually swapped the injectors round between the outers and inners so the injectors themselves must be working. I'll have to look at trying what you've said though to see if it's a wiring problem - I'm definitely starting to suspect this now. I've had problems before with duff connections in the multiplug that connects to the ECU and if the injectors are paired elecctrically that's got to be it. Could really do with some wiring diagrams and pin outs - does anyone know where I can get these? >"...118bhp is fine on the road though..." - give it another couple of weeks! The good news is that if >you have suitably sized pockets you can get pretty much whatever power you want out the K (Evo >reckon the VHPD engine didn't make the car any better mind). Yes, I'm all ready looking at junking all the induction/ECU stuff in favour of Janvey DTHTBs, an Emerald ECU and something like Bernard Scouse's induction case kit thingy. Not sure what it'll do for me, but it'll look nicer, should breath better and I'll be rid of the bloody Rover ECU and AS5 which seem to be nothing but trouble (how useful is an immobiliser on a car like the Atom!??!!). Also the rather unclever design of the Atom's bodywork at the back makes getting to the engine/air filter/oil cap/expansion tank a real pain. All needs a bit of a sort out really. >Do you do Bookatrack days? Which firms do you use? I'd like to see one in action and you don't see >too many around... I generally use EasyTrack as they tend to do more days up North (I'm in Manchester) - if I can it working, I may try and get to Oulton Park on the 27th July but it's looking increasingly unlikely at the moment. Might go to Rockingham on September 29th as well. If we come across each other I'll be happy to take you out as a passenger. Cheers, Ross. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murph7355 Posted July 16, 2002 Share Posted July 16, 2002 Oilyhands aka Dave Andrews is the man to talk to about your K series...What he doesn't know about them isn't worth knowing. Is the single seater type air intake just show (i.e. does it connect to the std. plenum) or is it a special duct? This might cause space issues with modified induction set ups. But the engine sounds so much better with them and has the added advantage of more power. I hear Rockingham's very good. Had an aborted trip there so would like to go and try it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Sewell Posted July 16, 2002 Share Posted July 16, 2002 Does your engine use one or two coils? If it is a dual coil ignition, then it could be a failed coil! Low tech luddite - xflow and proud! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ross.mcw Posted July 16, 2002 Author Share Posted July 16, 2002 Andy: Their is a K&N in the 'F1 style' airbox that pipes round to the standard plenum, behind that lives the expansion tank. All fine except that due to a slight 'design flaw' the 'F1 style' airbox doesn't come off unless you take off all the rear body work which is a pain in the arse. I really want to junk the rear plastic body work pieces and tidy up the engine ancilliaries (coolant hoses), induction gear etc. so that it's all on show with the roll bar just being an open roll bar. I've gathered, that Dave Andrews knows his stuff from looking at his site. Do you think he'd mind me contacting him? Graham: Don't know about the coil to be honest, looks like a single coil to me but I might be wrong. I'll have to take a closer look but if it was a dual coil thingy that could certainly be the problem. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Bees Posted July 16, 2002 Share Posted July 16, 2002 You've mentioned the dizzy, so it'll be a single coil. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Day Posted July 16, 2002 Share Posted July 16, 2002 Ross You mentioned pin outs - you have mail! Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ross.mcw Posted July 16, 2002 Author Share Posted July 16, 2002 Well I've replaced the dizzy, rotor arm, leads with new ones and still have the same problem. From looking at the ECU pin out it's clear that the injectors are driven in pairs by a couple of wires. The connections all seem okay so it's looking increasingly likely that the ECU just isn't driving the middle two injectors. I presume I can stick a multimeter across the wires for each pair of injects and check for a signal? Anyhow, hopefully, Tom/Simon at Ariel will be able to send me a swap unit to try. Mike: yes, you're right, it is definitely a single coil. Once again many thanks for everyone's input here - really cool. Cheers, Ross. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Bees Posted July 16, 2002 Share Posted July 16, 2002 The injectors will only be fired for a couple of milliseconds or so per cycle at cranking or low rpm, so I'm not sure what your multimeter will show (but it might show something). How about swapping the connectors around on the injectors - the duff cylinders should move around, if you see what I mean. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurence Wilson Posted July 16, 2002 Share Posted July 16, 2002 The multimeter should register a signal, just not a steady one. You need an osciloscope ideally, although the likelyhood of you having one of those lying about the garage... Just remember to stick the multimeter's 'probes' down the back of any plugs and not into the actualy contact surfaces. You don't want to loosen the contacts and have to replace them! To be honest I have no practical knowlege of the K series, but I will ask if it has a sensor on the injectors telling the ecu if your injectors have opened as they should? This could provide clues as to whether the injectors have opened, perhaps if you can't read a pulse into the injectors. Cheers! teeth.gifid=orange> Laurence 'LOZ' Wilson id=purple> Edited by - Peardrop on 16 Jul 2002 23:25:26 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julian Thompson Posted July 16, 2002 Share Posted July 16, 2002 Just set your multimeter to Hz and compare the reading on the working injectors to that on the none working ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ross.mcw Posted July 17, 2002 Author Share Posted July 17, 2002 Looks like it's definitely the output from the ECU for the middle pair of injectors as I stuck a tester on the plug that connects to the fuel rail loom (couldn't find anywhere else to get a connection). The tester is just a little pocket digital thing, just does voltage and impedance tests but does have a little bar scale thing. Anyhow, turning the engine over with it connected to the outer fuel injectors connection made the bar flash right up and down the scale as you'd expect, but the inner ones hardly moved the scale at all. What's a little odd though is that there's clearly some output but it's almost negligable compared to the outer two. Wiring all seems to be okay so I've got a swapout ECU and AS5 coming tomorrow to to try a swap - hopefully that'll do the trick (fingers crossed). Thanks for everyone's advice, really has been useful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Day Posted July 17, 2002 Share Posted July 17, 2002 So if the MEMS ECU is toast & it's out of warrenty now is the time to get an Emerald ECU! Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted July 18, 2002 Share Posted July 18, 2002 Another test ..... see what resistance you have across the injections. Unplug the loom from the ECU and measure across the injector pins at the ecu plug. Each injector should be ~10-15 ohms, so two in parallel would be half that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murph7355 Posted July 18, 2002 Share Posted July 18, 2002 Did you try the reset thing? Might not work but they can exhibit strange behaviour that this has been known to cure. ECU swap would do it too but you might be binning a non-faulty item. Then again, if it's warrantied... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ross.mcw Posted July 18, 2002 Author Share Posted July 18, 2002 Adam: I'll try checking the impedance across the injectors - hadn't thought of that although, I'm 99% sure that the injectors themselves are fine as I've swapped them over between the good/duff cylinders. I don't think it's a problem with the fuel rail loom either or even the connection back to the ECU from testing it last night either. Anyhow I've got my replacement ECU and AS5 so I'll test it tonight - PTP (suppliers to Ariel) seem fine with me just sending back my old one if that fixes it. I really hope it does otherwise I think drive my Atom into the canal and buy a pair of R1's and weld them together instead. Andy: I tried what you'd said regarding resetting the ECU, but it didn't seem to do anything so I'm not sure if I was doing the correct thing to reset the MEMS or resetting it simply made no difference to the problem. Once I've got this issue licked I'm definitely going to look at junking the ECU/AS5 in favour of an Emerald ECU and get some new induction gear (DTH DTBs). Perhaps even get the head ported with some new valves and cams. It needs more power anyhow and it would itdy up the engine 'bay'. Cheers, Ross. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted July 18, 2002 Share Posted July 18, 2002 I would suggest you try to confirm whether you have; 1 - spark and 2-fuel going in. spark - try removing the plug(s) but get them earthed and try to start the engine. You should see a spark, if not start to trace back to the distributor, coil, ecu. fuel - you know the injectors them selfs are ok, so check the wiring back to the ecu (measure imp at ecu plug, should be ~4-8 ohms for a pair of injectors I think). Someone mentioned simply removing the injector and seeing if fuel is injected out - Ive never tried this but it might be an idea to rap a cloth around the injector and try it. Lets us know how you get on ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ross.mcw Posted July 18, 2002 Author Share Posted July 18, 2002 Whoo hoo, it was the bloody ECU. Swapped it for the new one and problem gone - bloody bastard electronics... Cheers for the help and advice on this one guys. Ross. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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