Mickrick Posted December 27, 2008 Share Posted December 27, 2008 Can anyone think of a reason I shouldn't buy one of these ? I'm looking at putting around 400hp and 340nm of tourque through it. Am I correct to asume this shouldn't be a problem? I'm sure Quaife would say it isn't. But then they would wouldn't they. I know there are different manufacturers of LSD'd and TBD's but to be honest, I don't know which would be the best, and I am considering buying this whole unit direct from Quaife. Also, I can't see the difference between LSD, and TBD? Isn't a LSD torque biasing anyway? I also don't know what unit CC actually supply, and although they list the option as a LSD, I understand it's actualy a TBD. Am I correct in my asumption? Edited by - mickrick on 27 Dec 2008 19:59:04 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickrick Posted December 27, 2008 Author Share Posted December 27, 2008 Just found this, here Quite interesting. Seems there is a difference, and ATB is the way to go. But it seems kerb hopping can be a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Pikey Posted December 27, 2008 Share Posted December 27, 2008 I think you will find the advice is to get a plated LSD like a ZF or Titan if you are looking to put 400bhp though. Also I'm not too keen on these Quaife diffs just yet. I hear the crown wheel and pinions are not made by Quaife and are not a patch one the original sierra ones. Why not get a decent low mileage Sierra one and send it to Road and Race and get them to bead blast it, fit new bearings, seals and a Titan LSD? It will come back like new and cost you less than a new Quaife. Jason Currently, I am qualified to plead ignorance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickrick Posted December 27, 2008 Author Share Posted December 27, 2008 O.K. Jason, this is the type of advise I'm looking for. Anyone else? Cheers. Mick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil_K Posted December 27, 2008 Share Posted December 27, 2008 Can't compare new diffs with old, but I echo Jason in his thoughts. I went the Titan LSD route also. When I was having mine fitted at Road and Race, Phil was telling me that the older Sierra diffs are of much better quality and quieter than new 'copy' versions. However, I can't comment on whether he was referring specifically to the Quaife. I would give him a call and ask him, but I agree with Jason in that you can achieve the same for less. If you tell Phil you want to put 400bhp through a ATB, he should stop laughing by New Year . Seriously though, the ATB's can't handle much beyond 200bhp as they don't fully lock. Although it will 'survive', it won't act like a proper LSD at those power levels. Where am I? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonycaterham Posted December 27, 2008 Share Posted December 27, 2008 When I was having mine fitted at Road and Race, Phil was telling me that the older Sierra diffs are of much better quality and quieter than new 'copy' versions Phil told me the same thing about my diff when it was in for a refresh recently. Tony L7 EVL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Biddle Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 "Seriously though, the ATB's can't handle much beyond 200bhp as they don't fully lock. Although it will 'survive', it won't act like a proper LSD at those power levels." Strange, mine does. Very well. Proof of the pudding etc. Mickrick, plate type LSD's can be very "sudden" in their operation if not carefully specced and set up for your car, so if you do go down this route make sure you get that done by a supplier that really knows what thet are doing. Knowing what you are looking at I would suggest that smooth progression is what you should be looking for. Having said that either one will be fine assumimg the plate type is set up properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickrick Posted December 28, 2008 Author Share Posted December 28, 2008 Thanks or the replies chaps! Mike, re your comment about LSD being "sudden" that was the reason I stated in my second post, after a bit of reaserch (seems I have a lot more to do! ) that I thought TBD was the way to go. I want something scary, not lethal! What's been used in the Levante? I see Quaife have it on their website. But I suppose it has one of their geaboxes. I've been sleeping on this, and when you start doing numbers, it's scary what goes through these things! How they ever stay together I'll never know! Of course all that is theory, and asuming 100% traction. But we're in the real world. I am having trouble getting my head around why a A TBD wouldn't work above a certain limit? It looks very clever and simple to me. So less to go wrong! Any links to a Titan website anyone? I can't find anything, and I like to see what's inside, and get my head around it. I see CC have used ZF and AP in the past. Anyone know who's their supplier now? Does Phill at R&R supply any other diffs other than Titan? To be honest I'm not too worried about saving two or three hundred quid, if I can buy a brand new diff complete, rather than scrat around junk yards looking for a diff of spurious history. Considering the eventual cost of my project, and the relative cost of a new diff. Thanks again for your comments, it's all interesting stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Pikey Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 I think CC use the Quaife unit in all cars bar the R500 which uses the Titan. I know you are not keen to traul around a junk yard but I think a Quaife with one of their ATB things will cost you £2000 ish and a reconed Sierra diff with new seals, bearings and a Titan I think will end up costing you about £1100 all in. And even if they were the same price I would go for the reconed unit anyway bcause I think it will be an alround better unit. The Titan does not lock up harshly, or atleast I can't get it to! everything seems nice and smooth. It's a real easy decition Jason Currently, I am qualified to plead ignorance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul McKenzie Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 Note the 15degree- here - I imagine this has some importance, and may be a 'CC only' spec Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickrick Posted December 28, 2008 Author Share Posted December 28, 2008 So I could buy the whole shabang from CC with the Titan diff? I think the 15 degree is something to do with "ramp angle"? I have no idea what that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Pikey Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 Why would you want to do that? The 3 CC diffs I have had whined badly I know they all won't be as bad but at same time you will have guarranteed results with a R&R reconed unit. Also if it's a Titan you go for then R&R are likely to build it for CC anyway. You really need to speak to phil at Road and Race, heres his details Road & Race Transmissions Filston Farm, Filston Lane, Sevenoaks, Kent, TN14 5JU (South East) Phone: 01959 525105 Currently, I am qualified to plead ignorance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickrick Posted December 28, 2008 Author Share Posted December 28, 2008 Thanks Jason, I guess your right, I should speak with him. I'm sure he'll have a diff casing kicking around. I just checked on the CC website, and they want 1350 for a standard open diff complete with case! Upgrade to LSD 750 quid! 100 more than buying one of Quaifes TBD's. How can they justify that?! The Quaife is 1250 plus Vat, about 200 quid more than CC's standard diff. It's a brand new case, not a reconditioned jobbie that's been dragged accross a scrappie floor. I see Quaife also give give a lifetime warranty on their new diffs. that can't be a bad thing. I can't find a price for a Titan diff. I should speak to R&R and see what he will charge to supply the whole kit with recon case, then sleep some more. It's not such an easy decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Pikey Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 what ratio do you want? Currently, I am qualified to plead ignorance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Biddle Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 I would also not reccommend going to all the expense of buying a totally new diff. Mine is the original that came with the car in 1996. I had the quaife diff internals fitted by them in 98, and I think the cost then was about 450.00. Beleive me that diff has taken a pounding over the years. Before I fitted the RST I had a 225HP VX in the car and i did not treat it gently at all! It was checked out by Quaife before being refitted in the car during the rebuild in 2005 but no work was required on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickrick Posted December 28, 2008 Author Share Posted December 28, 2008 Jason, I haven't made my mind up yet. I was hoping to get some expert advice on this, and also gear ratio's. Obviously if whoever advices me regarding diff ratio, needs numbers for gear calc, I'll have to get back to the guys at Drenth, and sort it out. I wasn't going to get into serious talk with the guys at Drenth yet. I've made tentative enquiries, and it looks favorable. The plan is to buy everything I need to get the car rolling, early this (2009) year. Spend some time building it up, and once it's a rolling chassis, probably this time next year, to start looking at engine and transmission. I'm not even sure when I'll get the chassis back here yet, as I'm taking it down to Geoff Moss in Feb, while I'm over there, to get some stuff made in ally. He wants it for six months. So that takes me into the summer. The plan is to get everything from CC minus engine, transmission, diff, dampers, and wheels. I'll sorce that stuff elswhere. I'll have a play around with one of those gear calc programs when I get time. Mike, I have to get a case from somwhere, as there's just a big hole where it should be at the moment! But if you have the same Quaife diff from 98, and you've done nothing to it since, apart from have a look, then that's good going! I was thinking the new quaife diff complete, is cheaper than buying the LSD option from CC. And, less hassle. I really wanted to know if there was an obvious reason why I shouldn't fit one. It seems though, that your happy with yours, and Jason & Neil are Happy with their Titan. Which leaves me a bit either way! Edited by - Mickrick on 29 Dec 2008 08:30:15 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Pikey Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 Mick what the 400 bhp engine? jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickrick Posted December 28, 2008 Author Share Posted December 28, 2008 Jason, two of what you have, (I think?) Hartley H1. Eventualy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Pikey Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 I was hoping you were going to say that so sexy! (the engine not you) That will make mush of the quaife crown wheel and pinion 😬 At what revs is max power on one of those? J Currently, I am qualified to plead ignorance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickrick Posted December 28, 2008 Author Share Posted December 28, 2008 Well, the wife thiks I am! Max hp is around 9500. I'm going for the 2.6l with stock top ends. I'm going to get Holeshot to put it together, with a bit of top end work which should push it up to around that figure. I recon there's a lot more tuning potential there, when you consider the power coming out of the busa engines now. The H1's a bit of an unknown quantity, as there are only six of them running in cars at the moment. But I'm told there are 4 more being put together. A few folks have doubts anout them, but I'm willing to take a poke. I think it will be the only Caterham with one in, apart from Johns S3 test mule. here Unless another club member, I spoke to about it recently, decides to go that way too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Pikey Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 How exciting! So where do the engines come from? They can't be using the 2008 busa can they? J Currently, I am qualified to plead ignorance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickrick Posted December 28, 2008 Author Share Posted December 28, 2008 They come from the States, but Holshot in Ireland are building them up using thier top ends, for European customers. Would you like me to send you the bill of material? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Wilson Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 Mick, I have used both type of LSD's in my VX 2.0 Hillclimb car with around 220bhp running list 1A tyres and there are subtle differances in the way they perform. Originally the Quaife ATB was fitted and I ran this for 4 years in hillclimb use. I found it to be a great all round unit, never giving any problems, but prone to spinning the inside wheel when it was very lightly loaded, e.g. on the exit of slow off camber corners. I changed it for a Tranx plate type unit supplied by SPC (top chap by the way) and am currently pleased with the setup. The car is more stable in fast corners at the limit of tyre adhesion, it's more confidance inspiring right at the limit and slow corner exit is better. The downside is slightly more understeer on the entry of slow tight corners if driven in the same way and it's much harder to drive in the wet because of the way the diff locks as soon as you apply power. For my money I'd go with a plate type diff if it's properly set up, speak to Steve @ SPC, however there's not a lot wrong with the Quaife unit either. Good Luck Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Pikey Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 They come from the States, but Holshot in Ireland are building them up using thier top ends, for European customers. Would you like me to send you the bill of material? Yes please. To bandit.flyer@virgin.net as blatmail fails me. So where do holeshot get the parts from? are the top ends new or reconed parts? Jason Currently, I am qualified to plead ignorance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickrick Posted December 28, 2008 Author Share Posted December 28, 2008 Thanks Dave, that's something else for me to look at. Good to know you were happy with the Quaife. I'll have a look at the TransX. Cheers. Jason, all new parts. You will have probably heard of Holeshot if you have a Busa. They were one of the first people to start turbo charging them. I've known of them for over 20 years, from my bike days. I can't see why you couldn't use the 2008 top ends. There's not much difference in the 2008 model FWIR. A bit of an overbore, is it 1340 now?(There is a 2.8l option anyway by overboring the 1300 barrels) (Also a 3.0 version with a stroked crank.) compression raised from 11.0:1 to 12.5:1, titainium valves, and tweaked injection. I know the 2008 rods are different, but they change these for Carillo anyway. You should have the BOM in you box now? The prices were untill November, so you may have to check on those. Exchange rates and all that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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