TAP WATER FOR FUEL

[n james]

I bought a kit to convert my very thirsty G Wagen to partly run on water!!!!!!! GUESS WHAT!!!!

it actually works!!!! 😳 CO dropped from 1.5% to 0.3% MPG improved by nearly 20% and more power!!! so i bought a kit for my porsche, same sort of results, brilliant, also a side effect is that the engine runs cooler. It seems it works by getting oxygen and hydrogen out of the water by

elctrolysis, and connecting to inlet manifold, its as simple as that!!!

anybody want to try it, let me know. nick

[alextangent]

GUESS WHAT!!! Too many exclamation marks!!!! Doesn't work!!!! Better off converting to COAL!!!

 

Spammer on BC? Unbelievable... 🙆🏻

 

Alex McDonald

PASSED THE MOT!!!

[6speedmanual]

Yepp! I would like to try it!

 

I just can't decide whether I want you lend me your 911 or your G-Wagen. Assuming they are both available I would need them for about 3 months to carry out test work and check for consistency of results!!!!!

 

P

 

 

 

6SpeedManual

*tongue*There's no such thing as too much BHP per Ton 😬

[Peter Carmichael]

My my, we are all jolly impressed here, I can tell you. Electrolysis to disassociate hydrogen from oxygen and then combustion to put them back together again, apparently liberating energy in the process.

 

I can only presume that this is a not very good joke that I don't get.

[Peter Carmichael]

Alternatively it could be water injection, which is well known as a chargecooling method for forced induction engines. i.e. the water evaporates and the charge gets cooler. Apparently this doesn't involve electrolysis and doesn't violate the laws of thermodynamics.

 

Edited by - Peter Carmichael on 2 Jun 2008 00:16:27

[AMMO]

Met a guy called Richard Lamb (I think that was his name) at a party for Dave Power's wedding. Great name for a guy that ran Power Engineering and was into tuning!

 

Richard ran a company called ERL? (memory not so good!) that made water injection systems. This would have been the mid-90's and we were racing an air-cooled V-twin. Lots of problems with heat towards the end of a race. So I talked to Richard for some time about water injecting the engine. Something I had been thinking of doing for some time. He had no experience of doing this as all his systems were built for turbo cars.

 

Never did get to try this in the end but have always wondered what would have happened.

 

Nick, who make the kit you are using? Be interested to know.

 

Ammo

Raceco.com

[Colin Mill]

No need for a separate kit for this on a K series Caterham. The K series engine has a built-in water induction system - on every intake stroke water is admitted to the cylinder via an annular gap between the top of the liner and the cylinder head. Unfortunately the performance advantages when this system is fully functional (it can take several 1000 miles before it runs in) are modest and short lived. 😬

[n james]

Hi ammo,

glad to see at least someone is open to moving forward with the times.believe me this works, ivtried it, and its not a new idea, this has been around for nearly 50 years!! the guy who owns the

company actually had an engine just running on water but could not get it to rev.

anyway back to your question, the company is Water4GASUK Ltd [ hydrogen on demand systems ]

regards

nick

and for all you pessimists out there, why not try it before you knock it. 😬

[AMMO]

Nick

 

I never looked at water injection for more power or for fuel consumption but for cooling. The air-cooled Moto Guzzi engine was never designed to do what we were doing with it! Having said that the result of a cooler charge would have been more power as we were obviously losing power as the engine got unbearably hot during the course of a race. So maybe in certain circumstances more power will result.

 

Had a quick look at the website, will have a better look when I have a bit of time.

 

 

 

Ammo

Raceco.com

 

Edited by - AMMO on 2 Jun 2008 07:43:37

[Graham Perry]

The benefits of adding a tiny amount of water to the fuel in certain circumstances have been long known. I have a 1913 Bentall Oil engine with a manual tap on it to control a tiny amount of water into the inlet system which does smooth out the running when its very hot.

 

At work our tech guys produced some diesel fuel as an experiment a fuel years ago that had up to 15% water suspended in it as an emulsion. It worked quite well and some London buses were being run on it for a while . Not sure what happened in the end, as it seems to have dropped off the radar.

[n james]

Hi all,

thought i had better explain a bit more of how it works, from what little i know.

take a sealed container bar one vacuum outlet, fill with tap water, in the container are one

cathode and one annode, pass 12 volts through them and after a while you will see bubbles

in the water, which after a time grow to about half an inch accross, the gas in these bubbles

is known as browns gas eg hydrogen and oxygen.[ you can actually put a match to this and it

explodes ] then draw this into the inlet manifold which will mix and burn with the petrol, lpg

or diesel. therefore as i understand it, you need a smaller throttle opening for any given power

output that is how you get better mpg.

this is a VERY simplified description, but it DOES work, as i said ive tried it.

[u01rsb]

As Peter has already aluded to the energy required to split the water in to oxygen and hydrogen will, at the very very best will be only equal to the amount of energy gained from the combustion of these gases.

 

They do use water and steam injection in industrial gas turbines to increase performance and decrease harmful emissions (NOX) but this has got nothing to do with splitting water in to its component parts and it does decrease the life of some of the engine components.

 

So either you are talking about water injection and just don't understand correctly how it works or you are talking B*ll****.

 

I think for better effect you should have used more capital letters and exclamation marks, it would have been far more plausible

[Colin Mill]

Water injection, as others have mentioned, has been around for a very long time both in piston engines and gas turbines. What you have to ask yourself is why, given the simplicity of the technique, has it not been widely adopted by the main-stream car manufacturers.

 

Edited by - Colin Mill on 2 Jun 2008 09:05:59

[6speedmanual]

Ah splendid!

 

In the flurry of people firing up their computers at 9am (must check Blatchat to get in the right mind set for work), I see u01rsb has already mentioned in his paragraph 1 what I was about to say about energy balance.

 

I had a water injected SAAB 99 Turbo in the late eighties. It used water sprayed into the inlet manifold downstream of the turbo to cool the charge. The inlet air, heated by the compressive action of the turbo evaporated the water into steam thus cooling the inlet charge. The cooled charge allowed much greater boost pressures to be run. When it was all on song, the best boost I saw without any pinking problems was 22psi. The car went like stink (on boost!) and used prodigious quantities of fuel! Ah, happy days....

 

SAAB only tried this for a couple of years before the whole set up was superceeded by proper air to air intercooling, and much better electronic fuel injection control.

 

Peter

[alextangent]

It's baloney.

 

It violates the 1st law of thermodynamics. You can't get energy out of H2O -> electrolyse to H2 and O2 -> H2O. In fact, you have to put energy into the system, as it operates at much less than 100% efficency. These systems never produce significant amounts of hydrogen either. Even at 100% efficency can't generate more power than you put in -- a few hundred watts at maximum on the average car.

 

There might be benefits from mixing H2 and O2 in the petrol stream (mainly reduction in NOx, leaner burn), but hydrogen has a very slow flame front; about 1/10 of petrol. In a standard engine that's a pretty inefficent burn, and hydrogen engines have to be specially designed to account for this.

 

Plus, if you want your engine to fall apart, adding hydrogen to the mix is how to do it.

 

 

 

 

[Alex Wong1697456877]

http://www.water4gasuk.com/index.htm

 

Some very big claims but can't find an actual explanation about what it actually does to achieve them though? The above mentioned sealed container looks like a Skippy peanut butter jar!

 

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Edited by - Alex Wong on 2 Jun 2008 10:25:45

[MartinWoodham]

hi n james - do you have a contact address for Water4GASUK? I'm sure their local trading standards would be very interested in the claims made on their website.

 

Aside from the well-known charge cooling effects of (minimal amounts of) water injection on boosted engines, this is utter b*ll*cks. (WADR)

 

Even a basic understanding of chemistry tells us that the energy that must be put in to break atomic bonds will be, at 100% efficiency, exactly the same as the energy subsequently released when those bonds recombine. In other words any energy (mpg) gain will be at the expense of the energy put into electrolysis - which since it's coming from your alternator means that there will be a similar energy cost, cancelling out any gains. In practice efficeincies will never be 100%, so you'll have a net loss.

 

Martin

supersported ex-Roadsports B

 

PS

 

If anyone can prove a dramatic mpg gain obtained by burning 'Brown's Gas' produced by electrolysing water on board a car, I'll eat my hat whilst standing on one leg on a 12 foot pole, in the middle of Trafalgar Square, whilst playing the National Anthem on a mouth organ inserted up my 🙆🏻

 

 

edited to add a challenge

 

Edited by - mwoodham on 2 Jun 2008 10:21:28

[alextangent]

on a mouth organ inserted up my 🙆🏻

 

That I'd like to see . What tune would you play?

[u01rsb]

Dear n_james,

 

I was wondering, do you also have a working demonstrator for a nuclear fusion reactor in your back garden by any chance?

 

It would solve the current energy crisis and maybe even provide world peace?

 

I'd pay £££££s!!!!! for that.

 

Rob

 

PS could the acrobatic sevener try playing 'when the saints go marching in' after you have finished the National Anthem, ta

[jingars]

If Martin's doing requests, I would like to hear "Smoke on The Water".

 

n james, perhaps some pictures of the installations on your two vehicles wuld be a useful next step.

[MartinWoodham]

I'll have a go at 'Smoke on the Water' (and keep those requests coming in folks!), but getting the full chromatic scale is rather tricky in the 'reverse' position, it's a bit hard to operate the slide button...

 

 

Martin

supersported ex-Roadsports B

[alextangent]

n james, perhaps some pictures of the installations on your two vehicles wuld be a useful next step.

Looks something like this except runs on hydrogen rather than methane.

[alextangent]

Water4GasUK is the same mob as http://www.tranztecuk.com/ (linky); run by a Neil. Neil James perhaps?

 

Complete fruitcake territory.

[n james]

Hi all, and all you part time scientists out there,

it seems ive stirred up a bit of a hornets nest!

i have just spoken to the owner of the company, and he sais he is quite happy for you to e mail him. e mail address on his site. B ut he will not answer any , shall we say aggressive e mails, as he has had them before and now he just deletes them.

he points out that now both Honda and BMW are both developing hydrogen powered cars, and are getting the hydrogen by some sort of electrolisis from water.

also if trading standards want to come and check him out thats fine, it works!!!

also for my part i know it works, ive tried it.

if anyone has doubts, he sais just try it, then judge it!!

nick james 😬

[alextangent]

Nick, take a long hike off a short pier. This is a grade A scam, with all the classic signs, including your emails. While I'm willing to admit that taking the pi$$ out of you has been fun, your continued stupidity is wearing a bit thin. There's more accumulated knowledge here about fuel, engines, physics and chemistry than you'll ever have. Or the stupidly named Ozzie Freedom that "invented" this $hit.

 

****w1t.