Ital or English that is the question

[Ian D Smith]

I am thinking of upgrading a 1700 cc crossflow to something more modern. You know the rest............................... 😬

 

I have a live axle car but it was build as a kit. Is there an easy way to identify whether the axle is Ital or English. I am dreaming up how to spend money at lunchtime!! My concern is that if I spend money on the engine I will end up pushing problems to the back!

 

If it is an Ital what would be the approximate cost of switching to an English axle and other than the axle what has to be changed.

[philwaters]

Simplest way is normally to measure the wheel stud pitch - 4.25" means its a Ford, 3.75" is Ital.

As for needing a Ford or not - it depends how far you are taking the 1700 x/flow. The Ital is meant to be ok for 150-160bhp which is normally the spec of a decent 1700cc.

 

I changed to a Ford when I fitted my 165bhp Zetec, as I was worried about the torque that it delivers. here

 

Phil Waters

[NevDyson]

Ian,

 

Going throught the same on my rebuild.

 

Issues are :-

 

1.) Tunnel needs to flared out as the nose of the diff is wider

2.) New Prop / refurbished depending on if you are also doing a 4 to 5 speed conversion as the English has a bigger input flange (You can fit an Anglia one but they are getting rare and difficult to source)

3.) You will need to consider the handbrake arrangement (especially if you go for a disk conversion from Rally Design for example.)

4.) I have got Bruce at Arch doing the strengthening work and adding the brackets for the replacement bracket.

[Claire Voyant]

Anything over 150BHP will need an English axle.

For sure.

Discs on the back are not essential.

[Julian Thompson]

Yes, I seem to remember that Nick Chan / Bacon Butty managed to snap the back (Ital) axle in my Blackbird literally first time out and therefore had to swap to an English.

 

So far, even though I have tried, I have not managed to snap it.... 😬

[STEVE GILBERT]

I fitted an English axle to my Fireblade. Pretty easy actually.

 

The 3.54:1 is also better suited to the engine as it might actually hit the limiter in top at about 120 something

 

The handbrake was a non issue for me as I used the same sierra calipers that were on the Ital axle disc brake conversion, on the English disc brake conversion

 

I flared out the transmission tunnel with a scissor jack. Came out really well. You would never know it had been done.

 

Arch did the Axle case and as you would expect, it was spot on. Not expensive either.

 

Steve

 

See My Caterham Fireblade Here.

[cskip]

There is a lot of debate as to what the power limits of the Ital axle are. I think it really depends on your driving style. I have heard of people running more power than stated above on slicks on the track with no problems.

 

The english axle is heavier and personally I would prefer to keep the Ital. The cost of the upgrade has to cost £1k, when you factor in the new wheels, chassis mods, Axle etc....

 

As you have an Ital Axle I am presuming that you are running a 4 speed type 2 'box. If so, you may find this will need replacing.

 

Skip.

 

West Hants Luddite

See CSKIP here

[Nick Chan]

Ital axle is generally acceptable to 170 BHP but as cskip says, it does depend on your driving style and power/torque of the engine. The Ital axle is lighter but the Ford English axle can take around 250 BHP which is probably beefy enough for most Caterham owners...

 

If you go for an English axle, chances are you are going to have to change your front hubs to have the same PCD as the rear otherwise you are going to have dedicated wheels on each axle. And then once you have changed your hubs, you are going to have to change your wheels to Ford fitment too!

 

The Ford axle with a rear disk brake conversion is a nice piece of kit. To use the existing under dash handbrake mechanism, you will have to have to change the handbrake cable between the disks for a race car one and will need a bit of fettling to make a plate to hold the outers under the prop to allow the front half of the cable to pull against.

 

Cost wise, the English axle was around £1,200 but that did include the new mounting brackets, disk brakes and build by SPC. Staying with the standard drums, it would be a lot cheaper.

 

Jue - the blackbird broke its Ital axle on the first hillcimb Graham did in the BEC (with just 51 damp miles on the conversion 😳) but the BB put out 170 BHP then and was on the limit of the axle - and you can imagine he might have been giving it the beans, considering what he was trying to do!!

 

Cheers

 

Nick

 

The BEC has gone - now onto an R400!!

[Julian Thompson]

Thanks for clearing that up Nick.

 

I would add that the english AXLE isn't actually very heavy. It's the bloody diff nose that weighs a ton. A swap to an alloy diff nose sees you lighter by 6kg on the axle (and £500 in the wallet 😬) so that evens out the Ital vs English debate a bit, perhaps.

 

I'm just about to collect a specially built Raceco Blackbird 1200cc motor which we think will put out a fair chunk over 170hp 😬 so that should be a good opportunity to really test the English power handling theory. You are assured of a progress report!

[Sheds Moderator]

I'm not an expert in live axles but I've seen English for sale here at 😳 prices. IMO if you add up the price of fitting an English, a Zetec and a 5 speed box to an Ital/4speed/XF 7 then you may as well sell up and buy what you want. Just my 2p worth, you may want to do it as an exercise in which case the cost is immaterial.

[Golf Juliet Tango]

BOSS:- I would agree with the 😳 at prices.

(which is why I will stick to Supersprint spec and the Ital - oh yes and I do have a spare Ial axle too)

[Julian Thompson]

If you add up a decent diff, £500, an alloy case, £500 and a disc brake conversion, £300 ish, you are at £1.3k before you've even started to work on it or adapt it to the Caterham... but then, think about it - if you buy a De dion tube, ears, hubs, driveshafts, diff, diff mounts etc.. for a de-dion car it will only be similar in cost to an English I guess!

[MarcNS]

It's been said before, you can find a stonger Ital (Triumph) CW & P from Jigsaw, stronger half shafts and an LSD and it will handle more power.

 

 

The CarThe Club Built

Vvrrrooom

[allen]

I got my anglia type diff flange from Westf**ld

 

Don't know if they still do them but it wasn't expensive 😬

 

If you're going to have chassis mods done, how about going for the dedeon setup - possibly with second hand parts?

 

allen

[Sheds Moderator]

Arch won't convert a LA chassis to a DDion. It's uneconomic, apparently. I think you would end up buying a DD car in that case.