Engine Upgrades - BEC vs ?

[scooter]

Will be looking to drop the X-Flow over the winter and I am now seriously considering going down the BEC route.

 

I have been offered a 6 month old standard (and complete) Yamaha 1 litre engine with 900 miles making 180bhp (with ram). It comes with bike clocks, ECU, CDi, full wiring loom and all ancillaries to run.

 

I understand that a 'reverser box' will set me back about £600, but I'm unsure about the 'engineering costs' involved.

 

I'm guessing I will need the following machined parts:

 

Engine mounts

Reverser mounts

Propshafts (fore and aft of reverser)

Sprocket adaptation

Gearchange mechanism

Exhaust manifold

 

As I understand, there are no Yamaha 'kits' out there, so is there anyone who has gone down this road before who can give me a rough price for the above?

 

The alternative was seeing if I could shoe-horn a 231 bhp RX-8 engine and gearbox in the car.

 

Cheers

 

Scooter

 

 

Edited by - scooter on 24 Sep 2006 19:09:16

[Ferrino]

I have converted my 1989 Live Axle to R1 power - I used the carbed 1999 engine (carbs was from 98 to 01, then EFI) to keep things cheaper and to ease the installation - it really is a stonking little engine I have written about my installation previously and there have been many threads discussing bike engine conversions on Blatchat - I would suggest you make a brew and do a search of the archives

 

I am not sure that anyone has installed the very latest R1 engine in a BEC though - I remember reading that they are quite different beasts to the 02-03 EFI units. I think there were issues with electrickery and that the power curve wasn't exactly ideal, or something along those lines.

 

Yamaham @ Keevil

[DSL]

Latest R1 engine is pants in the midrange, a miles better bet is either of the last two generations of Suzuki Gsxr1000 motors.

 

Rode the K6 version of the Suzuki yesterday and its mental, with fab fueling & strong mid range

 

Sold my R1(latest model) 4 mths ago & that was very poor below 9000rpm by comparison.

[scooter]

Cheers guys. I've been looking through the old-posts on the Forum (my eyes have now gone blood-shot!), but there's only ever references to 'ball-park' total conversion costs.

 

I'm happy with ths cost of the engine and it's ancillaries, and also the reverser box, but I have no idea about fabrication costs... propshafts/engine mounts etc.

 

Any assistance in this regard may help me to make my mind up...

 

Thanks again.

 

 

[scooter]

DSL...

 

From what I've heard (and read) the new R1 is apparently the 'dogs'. I know a coupe of guys with '06 R1's and neither have commented about the midrange.

[timbo]

Am I right in saying the R1 gearing is a very long 1st with the remaining gears being closely stacked?

 

SV 2.3 Duratec and for the last time, no it is not a truck

[scooter]

Most (if not all) sports bikes have long 1st gears - don't think that the R1 is particularly long (in relative terms).

 

I could be wrong though (I frequently am!).

[Irrelevant]

The R1, being a sports bike, has a gearbox that's a bit marginal for a car, even a light one. And remember, the 180bhp with ram will be at a very high speed. You'd get less in a car as it won't go as fast.

 

I'd prefer a sports/tourer type engine (e.g. Blackbird or Hayabusa) where the gearboxes are meatier as they're designed for a heavier bike with 2 people plus luggage.

 

As far as costs go:

Engine mounts - a good weekend's worth of fabrication to make them.

Reverser mounts - an evening. Cut a plate to fit in the tunnel, weld it in between the bottom tubes, and drill the holes.

Propshafts (fore and aft of reverser) - c.£160 each

Sprocket adaptation - c.£60

Gearchange mechanism - can either use a cable (c.£60) or make up rods/bells. Plus you need to put some brackets in the tunnel and maybe the engine bay.

Exhaust manifold - £500 if fully bespoke from scratch, less if you bastardise bike pipes.

 

You missed out diff - some bike engines need a 3.14 or 3.28 although (IIRC) the fireblade can get away with a 3.62 so maybe an R1 car. Depends how high it revs. Also there's a dry sump. Some engines need them,some don't. Dry sumps can be very expensive. There's also clutch actualion to think about - i.e. you may have to convert to hydraulic or buy a cable convertion kit for your engine(if available).

 

A bike engine install is not something to do unless you are either handy with a spanner (and a grinder/welder) or you have a big wallet. This is doubly the case for an unusual install where you can't buy off the shelf bits or copy someone else's parts.

 

RX8 would be a nice engine and as long as the bellhousing and box will fit. It could be a reasonably cheap £/bhp install as well. Dunno if the gear ratios are suitable though or if the Mazda final drive is comparable with the commonly available Ford diffs i.e. 3.6 3.9. You can get lower ratios fairly easily (e.g. 3.14/3.28) but if the Mazda needs a 4.4:1 diff say, you've got a slim chance of finding a Ford one. If you can't get the diff, you'd need to mate the engine to a Ford/Caterham box which will likely make it a very expensive install as I doubt there's a bellhousing available. The RX8 install is likely to hit unforseen hickups requiring lots of time/skills and money.

 

IMO, the best cheap replacement for a Crossflow is a Zetec with some 45s.

 

[scooter]

Cheers Adam. Some very helpful comments there. I had thought about Zetec. Apparently Raceline are doing a complete conversion kit for £3,500. That said, I've been offered the R1 lump at a (very) good price (£1000 from a friend), so thought I might try something a bit different.

 

I've been on sportsbikes for years, but for some inexplicable reason my bottle crashed quite recently, so I sold up a few months ago. I still want that 'bike' feeling though, but with the 'reasurance' of 4 wheels.

 

I was hoping to do the install (minus the cost of engine and electrics) for £2500-3000. Am I being over-optimistic?

[scooter]

I have looked into it and see that the RX-8 final Gear Ratio is indeed 4.4.

 

Edited by - scooter on 24 Sep 2006 23:04:15

[Irrelevant]

scooter - £2.5 to £3K is the ball park for paying someone to fit the engine for you. You'd have to supply everything on top of that and pay for specialist fabrication.

 

Are you planning on doing the install yourself?

Can you weld? This is pretty important as you will need to make up loads of bits, including brackets that will need to go onto the chassis.

 

If you can do basic welding and are doing the install yourself, I reckon your budget would cover the bits you need and specialist services (e.g. making props, exhaust, etc.) with the ASSUMPTION that you don't need a dry sump system. If you do, it'll be another £1K plus.

 

A Blackbird would be a simpler bike engine as it was fitted as standard to a few Caterhams. They aren't known for their reliability though and (IIRC) they need a dry sump. Busas have been done by a few but there are no fitting kits available to my knowledge, well not for a Caterham (the Westfield mounts won't fit a Caterham).

 

If you decide upon the R1 engine, learn all you can from Ferrino's experiences.

[scooter]

Just thinking - Is the standard Yamaha ECU actually of any use if the engine is removed from the bike and placed in a car? Will it get confused by 'looking' for functions that are no longer available, and if so, can it be re-programmed?

 

Anyone have any knowledge?

 

Thanks (again )

[Ferrino]

Not a problem using the factory ECU with the 98-03 R1 engines - there are a few little tricks you need to do in order to satisfy the starter circuit logic and for instrumentation but nothing challenging.

 

If you are seriously contemplating installing the latest generation of R1 engine then I would ask people in the know and who have considered this engine, as I think there are some issues. I think it has been discussed on the Yahoo BEC list and there are some gurus on the DSR forum.

 

Edited by - Ferrino on 25 Sep 2006 23:59:39

[scooter]

Cheers Ferrino

[elie boone]

Best is to get a decent wiring diagram. you also need to consider the various safety circuit breakers like side standaard and neutral position sensor.