Myles Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 Long, very-hot blat on Sunday. Car has a full-undertray, Brise and Odyssey gel-battery fitted - the Odyssey is wrapped in heat-cloth. Decided to take the 7 to work this morning - very slow cranking compared to normal, but it caught OK. Someone mentioned gel-batteries don't like heat... Any truth in that? Anyone else had a similar problem? Project Scope-Creep is live... Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™ Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com Edited by - Myles on 21 Jun 2005 08:11:05 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Plato Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 put the banner back on and see if it improves ? I do sometimes get slow cranking from my 545 odessey if I start from realy hot . My 545 doesnt like being left in the trailer overnight either . The rest of the time its fine . Why have you wrapped the battery in heat cloth ?? if the undebonnet temps with your enclosed floor are that hot , then I would also fear for the other components like ecu , coil pack , and wiring harness ? Or if the symptoms are following fitment of the Brise then this could be the cause ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted June 21, 2005 Author Share Posted June 21, 2005 Everything worked fine on Saturday - I started it a number of times and it never had a problem. It's wrapped in heat-cloth because I've got the shortened-footwell (race chassis) and so the bat is not a million-miles away from the zorst - I had a bit of cloth sitting around, so I whacked it on for good measure. I might consider shortening the undertray slightly on that side - probably start by moving my spare SPA temp sender from the air-filter to under the cloth (IAT measured at the filter was 35degC whilst moving on Sunday - it usually only gets that hot sitting in traffic... Lagging/painting the zorst is suddenly becoming attractive... Project Scope-Creep is live... Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™ Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Plato Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 mine is slow cranking from cold - in fact sometimes it needs a jump . Is this the problem you had this morning ? did you get my mail re pads ? C7 TOP Powered by Hellier Performance 😬 South Wales AO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted June 21, 2005 Author Share Posted June 21, 2005 Well, I've only had the Brise on since Thursdayish last week - and only used the car on Saturday and Sunday (kinda toasty) - so this morning was almost certainly a lot cooler... ISTR V7 mentioned that he thought his was cranking more slowly than the Magneton - and he's got the same battery combo as us (PC545). It *did* catch first time and it *didn't* crank for longer than usual, so maybe it's just something to keep an eye on. Erm, think I must have missed your mail re: pads - when did you send it? Project Scope-Creep is live... Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™ Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I reply to every thread Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 Myles - you heard of OCD 🤔 😬 I don't think there's been a lot of study of it linked to cars/tinkering but........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted June 21, 2005 Author Share Posted June 21, 2005 Project Scope-Creep is live... Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™ Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Plato Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 re pads - It was just to suggest that to overcome sqeualing , your should grind a 30deg taper on the leading edge of the pad C7 TOP Powered by Hellier Performance 😬 South Wales AO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted June 21, 2005 Author Share Posted June 21, 2005 Thanks - I found your mail in the end - yhm back about things... Project Scope-Creep is live... Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™ Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevefoster Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 I've not had any trouble from my Red-top in the heat or the cold for that matter. I did have to change the extreme end of my air tmep map as the amb. temps are very high and I had over-corrected on the richening a bit at these temp... Hants (North) and Berkshire Area club site here Club meeting pics here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy couchman Posted June 22, 2005 Share Posted June 22, 2005 er...the Odyssey is not a gel battery. Mine was OK on a hot crossflow at Le Mans but the car struggled a bit when left hot for a few minutes. Instant hot restart was OK, so was cold, but in that intermediate area IME some engines seem to go on a go slow. No idea why however! Do we have a starter version of Oilman (Starterman) who could come up with a proper answer? Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevefoster Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 Oh, I thought it was... You want a Red Top then 😬 Hants (North) and Berkshire Area club site here Club meeting pics here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted June 23, 2005 Author Share Posted June 23, 2005 OK - yeah, it's a dry-cell battery... Right - an update: Most/all days this week, I've taken the 7 to work. Yesterday it started fine - but today (after a hot run home last night), I couldn't start it at all. All I got was a fraction of a turn of the engine (1/8th of a rev?) before the Brise gave up. I tried rocking it in gear in case it was an alignment problem, but no-dice. I tried jumping it (I was in a rush) - but same result. Not quite sure why this didn't work - it's not easy jumping the Odyssey due to the minimalist terminals, but I was definitely getting jolts as the negative jump-lead sparked as I removed it from the block. The pre-jump voltage was just 12.66V measured across the terminals - I know the Odyssey puts out slightly-less than a wet-cell battery, but this seems low. Does anyone have a link/the leaflet that tells you what the capacity of the PC545 is at this voltage??? FWIW, after getting home last night (hot, hot, hot!), I left it for an hour or two and then took it for a short drive to test a small fettle to the rear brake-pads. It started fine even though it was still quite warm. Hmmmph. Project Scope-Creep is live... Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™ Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Walker Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 Myles it sounds to me that your ignition timing is way out out (too advanced) try pulling of your coil feed and see if the starter can crank the engine. If it has no problem then your pistons are being forced back down the bores. The Brise should have no problem turning your engine. Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strangely Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 Myles, Rob's suggestion is a good one. I had a similar problem with my pre-Brise starter, and I ended up halving the advance at the 500 rpm / 0 load site from 20 to 10. I also reduced the 1000 rpm site from 5 to 2. That made it much easier to start (when it didn't just go, "click!"). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted June 23, 2005 Author Share Posted June 23, 2005 I don't think this can be the issue - I've not fiddled with the map since the previous starts - and the engine wasn't turning enough to draw any fuel/air in or to fire any plugs. Mebbe my description wasn't precise enough- it's very-much like a dead-battery situation. The solenoid fires the starter - which gets a small amount of momentum up before it engages - but as soon as the pinion engages with the flywheel, it stops spinning *almost* dead. I've been in touch with the suppliers and found the data-sheet - the batttery should have approx. 85-90% charge at 12.66V, so should be able to turn the engine over IMHO. I'll datalog the cranking voltage from the Emerald this evening. Project Scope-Creep is live... Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™ Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Plato Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 for the sake of 10 seconds , just pull the plug off the coil and try rather than dismiss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted June 23, 2005 Author Share Posted June 23, 2005 EU3, but OK... Project Scope-Creep is live... Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™ Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Green Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 According to the Emerald manual, when cranking, the ignition map is completely ignored and the startup advance value in the little box below the map, is used. The map is used once the rpm increases above 500. The ignition values on load site 0, below 1k rpm, are therefore only really there to stop the engine stalling. Aren't they ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Plato Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 yes Miles the plug off the coil pack !! EU2 has whats known as a distributor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted June 23, 2005 Author Share Posted June 23, 2005 Coils are in the leads, no 'coil pack' ...I can unplug the entire caboodle from the loom though Nick - yes, I believe you are right (was reading up on this last night - it contradicts something Peter Carmichael posted regarding the tendency of a couple of Emerald-ecu'd engines I know (mine included) to stall coming into junctions with the fuel-cutoff-on-overrun enabled). Anyway, unless the Emerald was fried along with everything else and decided to corrupt the map overnight, I really can't see that it's an advance issue. Even *if* the map had changed, I still believe the engine didn't actually turn enough degrees for any of the cylinders to fire. Project Scope-Creep is live... Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™ Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strangely Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 According to the Emerald manual, when cranking, the ignition map is completely ignored and the startup advance value in the little box below the map, is used. The map is used once the rpm increases above 500. The ignition values on load site 0, below 1k rpm, are therefore only really there to stop the engine stalling. Aren't they ? I know the bit in the that you are talking about, and that's one reason why I hadn't mucked about with this value before. But changing it made a difference. I think it's because when the engine starts to fire, it does somewhere between 500 and 1000 rpm, which means that some proportion of the 500 rpm site figure is used to calculate the ignition advance (the lower the revs, the greater the proportion). Just in case it's relevant to Myles, my startup advance is set to 5 degrees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Green Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 My engine (on plenum and single TB) doesn't start smartly from cold; it sort of ambles into life, so your comments might apply. However, when hot, if it isn't "locked up" in the way Myles describes, it starts very smartly... Myles, are you running a plenum and single TB ? If so, try resetting the hot idle (switch off the idle correction using advance first) with a little more idle speed on the throttle screw, then switch the ign advance idle corr back on, with an appropriate target idle speed in the relevant table. Don't forget to do the throttle pot recal. Could well be blind leading the blind, but it seems to have improved things on my car, wrt almost stalling on clutch dipping. If you are using separate TBs...you could try it anyway! Edited by - Nick Green on 23 Jun 2005 15:16:22 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strangely Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 Anyway, unless the Emerald was fried along with everything else and decided to corrupt the map overnight Ooo, ooo, I've had that happen. I couldn't quite isolate the circumstances, but I have seen the Emerald "lose" the fueling portion of my map, which obviously meant that my engine wouldn't start. It's worth re-uploading your saved map (you do have it saved, right?) just in case... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted June 23, 2005 Author Share Posted June 23, 2005 Nick, I am on Jenveys... I'm not sure raising the idle is the best answer to the stalling issue, it's more of a 'sweep it under the carpet' solution. Project Scope-Creep is live... Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™ Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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