Mark H Posted November 7, 2001 Share Posted November 7, 2001 my 1600ss is used every day so i need adegree of reliability, BUT how far have xf,s been tuned. is it wise to keep spending my hard earned cash on my xf, or should i be looking at a zetec. All coments welcomed. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMMO Posted November 7, 2001 Share Posted November 7, 2001 Mark I bought my Crossflow last year with the intention of going Zetec. I also use my car every day and want reliability. I'm fitting a re-built 1800 around Christmas time. The 1800 with Kent cams and a bit of head work should make more than enough power for my needs. I personally prefer 16 valves to 8 any day of the week. Don't know if there is much of a weight penalty going Zetec. I assume it is heavier than the Crossflow. The Zetec is definately quieter which I think is important for a high mileage car as the noise drives me nuts after a while. I've decided to stay on carbs with 3D ignition for next year with fuel injection to follow later as funds allow. Hoping to do the whole thing for around £2.500 but that is doing all the work myself. I've been a passenger in a couple of Zetec engined cars and they are very docile at the bottom end with lots of power on tap when you press the loud pedal. My advice is go Zetec. AMMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCG Posted November 7, 2001 Share Posted November 7, 2001 Marc, My advice is to ring Roger King for a chat. He knows all things Xflow and will give the best advice to suit your needs. (01992 421111) Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark H Posted November 7, 2001 Author Share Posted November 7, 2001 AMMO, thanx for the info. do you know if you are going to have to change the xf. spec rad. and do the holes in the bodywork line up for the zetec(inlet. exhaust.). on another note what spec is your xf, and what are you going to do with it ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark H Posted November 7, 2001 Author Share Posted November 7, 2001 Dave G. thank you for mr KINGS number, i will give him a bell. do you know where he,s located. thanx agian. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
excess baggage Posted November 7, 2001 Share Posted November 7, 2001 Marc, Join the club, get the mag and RK's full name and address, phone no. fax no. email address, web site details et al are in their monthly advert. If you can afford the car you can surely afford 30 quid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger King Posted November 8, 2001 Share Posted November 8, 2001 Right now, I'm located in my lounge with a beer in hand, but for work we are in Hoddesdon (just north of the M25). To answer the original question about how far to go with a Crossflow - you can get around 170bhp for road use and 185 in full race trim. Larger figures can be seen, but maintenance requirements become a little taxing on the wallet. 155bhp is probably the most common spec that customers choose and this will give extremely good driveability coupled with long life. In fact we rarely build two identical engines because everybody has their own specific requirements. Incidentally, my definition of a road engine is one that can be driven round a multi-story car park without problems. This may seem a little eccentric, but when you have to live with the car, these things become important. Edited by - roger king on 8 Nov 2001 00:35:11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMMO Posted November 8, 2001 Share Posted November 8, 2001 Mark I'm going to use the original radiator and am hoping the carbs and exhaust will stick out of the original holes without problems. I have no reason to believe they won't. I will be able to tell you for sure in a couple of months time what, if any, installation problems I had. My current engine is a 1700 Supersprint. I don't find it very powerful. This is probably due to the pistons not being very good and the compression not being up to scratch. I have driven a Westfild with a properly sorted 1700 X-flow and it was much faster than mine. I have no doubts if my X-flow was re-built with good components it would be very nice. When the new engine is in I will sell the X-flow, either as it is or stripped for inspection. I might possibly rebuild it with decent pistons and cam. The engine has only 23K on the clock. I may even break it for parts as it has a Roger King lead free head which must have a value on it's own. The only real problem it has is the nasty pistons Caterham put in it in when converting it to 1700. Your decision is a difficult one. The easiest route is to modify the X-flow. The Zetec is more involved but I think it will end up as a better option for my needs. AMMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Furst Posted November 8, 2001 Share Posted November 8, 2001 I have a RK Engine in my car putting out about 185BHP. One thing to consider with any engine in the Caterham is the gearing. My engine is fantastic but would not work if I had not shortened the gearing with a 4.4:1 diff and s/c 5speed gearbox with a short 5th. Now it laps as fast as SLRs and even the Blackbird (I have the race results to prove it!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark H Posted November 8, 2001 Author Share Posted November 8, 2001 thank you all for the replys. Rodger can you give me a ball park figure to rebuild the 1600 to 150bhp spec, i understand its very difficult to be exact.but am i looking at more than a couple of grand ?. i know i,m asking a lot but any info greatly recieved. Mark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Turner Posted November 8, 2001 Share Posted November 8, 2001 I have used x-flows in the live axle and de-dion cars I have owned in various states of tune ranging from a standard spec 1700ss to a 1800 all steel monster. As power rose drivability suffered but other than minor problems with head gaskets and valve gear component wear (could have been using 8400rpm) the engines have all been reliable. Roger King put the car on 3D Weber Alpha and this improved the drivability and fuel consumption (slightly) and it gave 143 @ the wheels, I beleive this equates to approx 175 @ the flywheel. I changed to a rally cam to improve drivability a couple of years ago and it became a much nicer car to live with on the road and appeared to suffer little at sprints. Without a doubt the nicest engine (best compromise) was a 1660 with a 244 40's and a John Noble head, very competitive at the time in sprints and lovely on the road. Still competing in sprints I decided last year I needed some more power (I am in the over 1700 class) as well as keeping or preferably improving the drivability. I chose the 2 litre Zetec route and have just completed the conversion, very straitforward with only a few minor glitches and has cost approx. £3000 including cams. I had the car on the rollers last week for a brief set-up (no power runs) and it appeared to be extreemly tractable and smooth. I have yet to drive the car on the road but based on lots of comments from other users and the straitforward conversion I have no hesitation in recommending the Zetec. I am keeping the x-flow, its even easier to change back. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark H Posted November 8, 2001 Author Share Posted November 8, 2001 excess baggage, i can and i have . but STILL no low flying ! waiting for the postman agian! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger King Posted November 8, 2001 Share Posted November 8, 2001 Marc, I've sent you a reply via e-mail Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casbar Posted November 8, 2001 Share Posted November 8, 2001 I have just upgraded my xflow from 1660 to 1700, fitted forged pistons, 244 cam etc. The bits and machining cost around £1500. The engine is brilliant, showed around 135 - 140 at the wheels. Very driveable - very pleased. But I am a xflow fan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave H Posted November 8, 2001 Share Posted November 8, 2001 I replaced my rather tired Xflow with an 1800 Zetec a couple of months ago. The Carbs stick out the same bonnet hole, the exhaust hole needed modifying. If you are doing this job talk to Jame Whiting, as he can supply all the bits you need (engine mounts, pipe work, fuel pump, exhaust primaries,alternator mounting brackets, Apha 3d mapped ignition, thrust bearings etc). Not a difficult job, but be very specific about which engine you are going to, and which gearbox you are putting it on to, as there are differences between the 1800 and 2l engines being attached to the 4 or 5 speed boxes. The end result is great. The old crossflow was well past its prime. The Zetec is free revving, pulls nicely, but it doesn't make the same noisesad.gif It gives a better MPG as wellsmile.gif Dave H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Abbott Posted November 8, 2001 Share Posted November 8, 2001 I went from a 1700 xflow to a 2 ltr Zetec lump and have not looked back. The Zetec is a modern generation engine, it uses unleaded, won't leak oil and revs much smoother (not to mention stronger) than the 30+ year old xflow design. I think that comparison of the two engines is an exceelnt example of how engines have developed over the years! I weighed up the option of rebuilding the xflow - and understand that RKings work is excellent BUT you are going to be limited to the amount of power and longevity of the engine. I seem to remember that tuned xflows (that have the wangers revved of them) should be 'lightly rebuilt' every 10k or so....... My next upgrade to the Zetec will be a pair of 45s (i've been running the old 40's - just re-jetted upto now) and some new cams - which should give about 190-200 bhp. A figure that you'd never dare approach with a xflow. My advise - save the 1500 notes and put it towards the Zetec conversion. Both James Whiting and Raceline REALLy know thier stuff and will provide you with all the help/parts/service you'll ever need! Nigel Abbott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casbar Posted November 8, 2001 Share Posted November 8, 2001 I also agree with most of the comments around the Zetec option. The main reasons I didn't go that route, were - Cost £4k as opposed to £1500 to rebuild my engine. Power, I've a live axle, and 155 - 160 is getting near to the point that the axle may not be strong enough, so why do I need a 180 - 200 bhp engine. Even if I need to refresh the engine after 10k, thats around 2 - 3 years motoring and will not be expensive I didn't want to fit a non standard engine to my 7. So if I wanted a modern engine, I would have sold the xflow and bought a K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave H Posted November 8, 2001 Share Posted November 8, 2001 Casbar, I had the same thoughts, Live axle, didn't want to break it with exessive power, which is why I fitted the 1800. I've not had it RR'd but the power of a standard 1800 Zetec on 45's with 3d mapping should be 150 - 155, comfortable for an Ital axle in standard for. Upgrade the axle (LSD, Pual Harvey Fireblade jobbie, choice is yours) and change cams, there is another 20 bph. To put in a K requires a pile more work and expense - bell housings don't match, engine mounts in a different place, wiring loom is sigificantly played around with, I think there may even be some chassis changes required, but the Zetec "just" drops in. Dave H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casbar Posted November 8, 2001 Share Posted November 8, 2001 Yep, I wasn't suggesting dropping a K into the old xflow space. If I wanted to go that route, I would have sold my present car and bought another one with a K engine. I do like the xflow and I can do most of the work myself. Did the engine re-build with a lot of help from a mate. In a couple of years time, I may decide to dump the xflow for a Zetec, depends on funds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave H Posted November 8, 2001 Share Posted November 8, 2001 It's a difficult choice. I spent a long time costing a K against the resale on the Xflow, and then I drove Barry Sweeney's Zetec, and priced up the engine swap. Add in a load of other stuff I did on the car at the same time (new wings, floor pan, scuttle, paint job), I consider that I am financially better off, and still have a great car with loads of potential to upgrade/improve as time and money (and wife) allow. I have to admit to missing the noise the xflow makes, but it is still sitting in the garage so at some point I could do a complete rebuild...just don't let my wife read this. Dave H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Turner Posted November 8, 2001 Share Posted November 8, 2001 Dave My x-flow is now in the downstairs loo, I see it more often now than when it was in the seven. Just cannot bring myself to part with it. To prove that I am really sad there's a FF spec 1600 originally out of a Merlyn in bits in the airing cupboard. Suppose I own a "twin engined semi". Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave H Posted November 8, 2001 Share Posted November 8, 2001 I wonder how many xflowers swap out the engine but keep the xflow just because...no reason, except they can't actually let it go, or might do "something" with it. There could be hundreds of idle engines out there, waiting to be bought back to life... Dave H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
millsn Posted November 11, 2001 Share Posted November 11, 2001 The decision is really dependent on one factor - What you want from your car. The zetec has a very lazy power delivery compared to a tuned crossflow. Don't get me wrong, it's very fast in 165 spec only and you can tootle along in silly gears say 5th at about 10mph if you want. But you need to ask yourself if that's what you want from your sportscar. I'm actually really pleased with mine now. I was a little reticent once the engine was installed from new but I now have about 2K miles on it and it's loosening up. That was point one, the 2nd point is that there is no noise like an XF on song and you don't get that same noise with the zetec, personally I miss it, but not on the long touring journeys to Scotland or on any MWay. I think fuel consumption is poor in the zetec although around town it seems to be very good (you don't get that power for free). For reference I used to have a 1700SS with a head by Roger. The head cost about £700 and was worth every penny, it transformed the car even on the standard bottom end and cam. The engine seemed to want more revs than my 234 cam could allow it though which makes sense I suppose. In the end you can see which choice I made. Nigel Mills - 2.0 Zetec carbs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark H Posted November 11, 2001 Author Share Posted November 11, 2001 Thank you all for so many replys. thanks to Roger for all the information and advicecool.gif. and to all you guys with the zetecs you have given me a lot to think aboutconfused.gif MARK. teeth.gif Edited by - marc hicks on 11 Nov 2001 11:38:19 Edited by - marc hicks on 11 Nov 2001 11:38:53 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark H Posted November 11, 2001 Author Share Posted November 11, 2001 One more question, to all the Zetec boys ,i have an early d dion and am wondering if many of you have changed the final drive ratio, for new your power plants. if so to what? confused.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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