1800 K Series Clarification

[Silver 21]

There appears to still be some confusion as to what constitutes an 1800K series that can compete in Class 2 and 3 so to make it clear before you all go off spending your money on mods, 1800K's will only be allowed in these classes if they are totally unmodified and are 140bhp versions, this means no mods to Head, Injection, Plenum, ECU etc. The 1800 was allowed in on this basis and as its torque alone makes it comparable to tuned 1.6K's.

 

I'm sure I will get lots of abuse over this but thats we what agreed last year and nothing has changed, I don't want people turning up next year and be disappointed if they are put into Class 4 or 5.

 

Any 1800 that is deemed to produce more than 140bhp (R300, 400 etc will go in Class 4 or 5 as this year)

 

Edited to Clarify it even more

 

Graham

 

Competition Secretary

2004 Speed Championship - 9 events, 2005 Speed Championship - Watch this space

 

Edited by - Bacon Butty on 14 Sep 2004 15:14:42

[robmar]

sounds good to me good to have the clarification

 

rob

[Steve Robinson]

To save any more debate what about simply chucking all K's into classes 4 and 5 😬

 

Steve

[robmar]

problem with that is there would only be about 3 or 4 of you left in class 2 & 3

 

rob

[Andy. N]

BB - Thanks for that (I think!!). You certainly won't get any abuse from me - I think your clarification will ultimately be very helpful for all concerned. I do have a few questions though (for the sake of absolute clarity), but I don't want to start a firestorm.......

 

Andy Nicholls

C7 AJN

[robmar]

go on Andy - best to air in public

 

I am sure the answer is no anyway to whatever question it is 😬

 

rob

[Richard Price]

1800K's will only be allowed in these classes if they are totally unmodified and are 140bhp versions, this means no mods to Head, Injection, Plenum, ECU etc.

 

Do 1800's then need to:-

retain the STANDARD short 4 branch exhaust manifold and system?

run with the STANDARD 48mm throttle body rather than the popular 52mm version?

 

I think they may have been two of Andy's questions.

 

Come on Andy, what else do you want to know?

[david nelson]

I would like to thank Graham for saving me loads of money, my wife is delighted that the cost of competing next year will be kept under control .

 

I am sure that if the results from 2005 show that the class structure needs to be ajusted then common sense will prevail ie. if I am not winning every sprint/hill climb, and Rob, Adrian or Dave continue to be faster than me.

 

Thanks for the clarification Graham on engine upgrades.

 

Richard good points,

I think exhaust is fine as you could order an R500 exhaust as standered and just remove the cat.

bigger TB, well you have to draw the line some were, I am unsure if it makes much diffrence but would be happy to see some data to show if there is a difference. It also keep the expence down.

 

David

 

Edited by - David Nelson on 14 Sep 2004 18:31:44

[robmar]

IMO - exhaust should be free as for the reasons that David states

 

I think someone did a back to back on the TB' and by itslef it didn't add much if anything if you rcar came as standard with 52 then fine

 

rob

[Mr Locust]

😬 Fight fight fight.........

 

Ian

 

Green and Silver Roadsport 😬

[Andy. N]

OK, here goes......

 

Graham - sorry if this results in more work for you, but these really are genuine queries that are made in the spirit of wanting to stay on the right side of the reg's I honestly think that classes 2 and 3 are the right place for "standard" 1800 K's (but as we all know, the main difficulty with that is in defining "standard"). I think your earlier clarification goes some way to helping with that definition, but there are additional specific questions.

 

My car is as near as dammit a standard Roadsport, 1800 K (140bhp, ie Supersport). The only "upgrade" is an uprated master cylinder. Would my car still be eligible for classes 2 and 3 it it had the following upgrades:

 

4:2:1 exhaust (or any other exhaust that wasn't the "standard" 4:1 with short primaries);

52mm throttle body;

Verniers;

Lightened flywheel.

 

I assume that by saying "1800K's will only be allowed in these classes if they are totally unmodified and are 140bhp versions" relates only to engine related upgrades (and therefore items such as diff and suspension upgrades remain open to competitors running 1800 k's), but can you please clarify???

 

FWIW, I think it would be harsh if anyone who has spent money on any of the items listed above is required to revert back to original spec or gets bumped up in the class structure. From my point of view all of the above upgrades are on my Christmas list, but I currently have none of them (so i've got no particular axe to grind). But it would be useful to know if I need to draft a new letter to Santa

 

Andy Nicholls

C7 AJN

[Graham Perry]

Presumably there will be some sort or technical steward appointed to check all this ?

[Andy. N]

Graham P - if we're going to have rules, they need to be clear. We haven't needed a technical steward yet, and i see no need for one in the future. The sentiment of what BB has articulated is clear - all we're doing now is detailed clarification in relation to specific upgrades. I see where you're coming from with regard to some of the upgrades being impossible to see from the outside, but these questions still need answering. The fact that an upgrade may be difficult to police should not affect whether the Comp Sec rules it in or out - this is grass roots motorsport, and I for one would be happy with a gentlemans (or ladies!) agreement.

 

 

 

Andy Nicholls

C7 AJN

[Graham Perry]

Good point, agreed

[david nelson]

Andy

 

My understanding

 

exhaust any type as you could have ordered a R500 exhaust instead of the 4-1 short primaries.

 

lightened flywheel: this is standard on on 140 bhp superlights so should be ok

 

52mm TB not allowed (I think it does not make that much diffrence, CC told me that 52 TB are now standered on new 1.8 K's but will see what BB says)

 

Verniers: I have a 140 bhp with verniers and I have been close to Rob's times all season ,so not sure this makes any noticable advantage. I hope they will be allowed.

 

I beleave the thinking behind this is to stop someone geting there head ported, change cams and have a programable ecu and then producing 160 + bhp.This will allow others to start sprinting to be compedative and also keep the cost down?

 

I also think that suspension, tyres, gear box types should not be regulated. Your master cylinder must be a safty upgrade and how could anyone complain about it.

 

Just my thought, but I think your point are valid and need clarification

 

David (not trying to be a troublemaker)

 

 

 

Edited by - David Nelson on 18 Sep 2004 09:08:00

[No Nuts]

Hi Folks, been away a while and if I do compete next year it will only be occasionally and on a very tight budget. It would be nice to come back though!

 

Anyway, I see the good old class 2 debate goes on.

 

Just a few points to bear in mind:

1. How do you police internal engine mods?

2. What is the reason for class 2 & 3? - I think this is the big one. My assumption is that it is a (relatively) low cost slass.

3. Bear in mind that with the 1600K in standard 115bhp format you are penalising, cost wise, people who want to go for a non Caterham upgrade to Super Sport spec.

4. Most who drive in class 2 & 3 use their cars on a regular basis, so they need to be driveable on the roads but above all reliable ❗. Having a competitive class 4/5 car is a completely different ball park in terms of cost and reliability.

5. Naturally I would say that I feel discrimination against those who have taken a non Caterham upgrade route from 115bhp spec to super sport spec is, well, rather unsporting.

6. 1800 K's should be allowed in the class whether they are standard Caterham "supersports" or otherwise, so long as they are running plenums.

7. It's easy to police regulations if you are looking for something obvious like plenum chambers and throttle bodies. Policing other mods surely increases complexity, cost and potential for disagreement.

 

I've no idea what plans are for the classes so apologies if this covers old ground. If there are plans for a meeting to discuss this, please let me know.

 

Regards to all, I missed competing against you all this year! Well done Graham on what sounds like an excellent season yet again.

Guy

 

NN 😳

 

Edited by - No Nuts on 18 Sep 2004 10:59:57

[Silver 21]

In essense I'm not trying to be prescriptive but David N is right, we are trying to stop people getting heads ported etc on 1800 engines that already have an immense level of torque, so to try and directly answer the questions:

*arrowright*Exhaust is Free

*arrowright*Flywheel is Free (If they are fitted as standard to 140 bhp sl's)

*arrowright*Verniers are Free

*arrowright*Non Engine Mods are Free (as in any other Class)

 

*arrowright*52mm TB are NOT ALLOWED

*arrowright*Programable ECUs are NOT ALLOWED

*arrowright*Porting to Head is NOT ALLOWED

 

Car should carry standard plenum and inlet as they came from Caterham

 

We are not going to technically inspect cars (perhaps the odd glance under peoples bonnet), there is an element of trust here, if you choose to break this trust the only people you are fooling is yourselves *thumbup*

 

Graham

 

Competition Secretary

2004 Speed Championship - 9 events, 2005 Speed Championship - Watch this space

 

Edited by - Bacon Butty on 18 Sep 2004 11:35:04

[Richard Price]

1. How do you police internal engine mods?

I don't think any of us want to get into sealed engines like many of the race series.

I believe that the external features can be used as a big enough control measure.

I think that it may even be difficult to police engine capacity. Do we want to be measuring stroke in a sprint paddock?

Whilst I have no wish to alienate Guy, I don't know of any other class 2 or 3 K-Series runner that is currently using anything other than the Rover MEMS engine management. The use of programable engine managment gives the ability to use limitless internal modifications. If we stick to MEMS engine management, that can effectively limit the power and driveability.

3. Bear in mind that with the 1600K in standard 115bhp format you are penalising, cost wise, people who want to go for a non Caterham upgrade to Super Sport spec.

My own last winter upgrade cost less than the factory Supersport upgrade. Piper 633 cams and a home ported head, with standard valves at around £450 including all machining, gaskets and seals. I'm also still running the standard (non supersport MEMS) ECU, and whilst I find the revlimiter more than before, I should have changed gear by that point anyway!

6. 1800 K's should be allowed in the class whether they are standard Caterham "supersports" or otherwise, so long as they are running plenums

 

I agree. The plenum is a good limiting factor.

 

Graham,

Why do you feel the need to change the rules? Have you received complaints? Class 2 has certainly been very close this year, with no one haveing a massive advatage over anyone else. Look at the championship standings - no maximum point scores and 4 different class winners. When we've done well in class 2, we know we've worked hard for it!

 

Edited by - Richard Price on 18 Sep 2004 12:01:54

[No Nuts]

Richard, I appreciate what you are saying and yes, the MEMS is very easy to police. But as I understand, it will "learn" what the engine is capable of. At this time, I have no desire to modify anything internally on my engine as reliability is key for me. I don't want the experience that Colin had last year with his head problems after what I understand was a fairly minor modification.

 

Yes, I feel it's a bit unfair as I am about the only person in class 2 on an emerald but it's not a magic way of producing more power - current figures are 143bhp, that's with 52mm tb, 632 cams (I think) verniers and powerspeed exhaust. I'd love more, woudn't we all, but I have to cut my cloth and all that. The decision to go with the DVA K02 supersport upgrade was made bacause it was cheaper than the Caterham upgrade. I think the MEMS Supersport ECU (which has no potential to be retained for future upgrades) is £600 alone. So that would, to my mind, have been £600 wasted on something that would not have been able to be used for anything else.

 

I'll keep fighting the corner for programmable ecu's in classes 2 and 3 as they can only take advantage of the physical aspects of the engine, you cannot program more power than the engine is physically capable of delivering now can you?

 

Guy

 

NN 😳

[Silver 21]

My comments refer to 1800K's ONLY in Class 2 & 3, the engine has a completely different torque characteristic to the 1600K, thats what this posting s about.

 

Richard my understanding is that you run a 1600 so what is the problem?, and yes I have had complaints that competitors are secretly working on high spec 1800 engines to run in Class 2 & 3, hardly playing by the parameters set when we allowed them to come 2 & 3 last year when they were at a major disadvantage in 4 & 5, so I'm not changing the rules but trying to clarify the situation.

 

It seems there are competitors out there who are hell bent of finding a way round the loose regs we run, if you would like me to to I can clarify what spec we should have for every class buts that getting stupid, as I said in my previous posting there has to be an element of trust but from postings on here today people want to break that trust,

 

The championship was set up as a 'fun' competition but I think far too many people are taking it far too seriously, I only intervene when things are brought to my attention by other competitors *mad*

 

 

Graham

 

Competition Secretary

2004 Speed Championship - 9 events, 2005 Speed Championship - Watch this space

 

Edited by - Bacon Butty on 18 Sep 2004 13:45:53

[No Nuts]

Eeek, sorry if I have caused any offence in this, 'twas not my inttention.

 

I've not been in the loop and rarely get to BC these days. My understanding at the start of 2004 was that the rules on things like ECU's and stuff for class 2 would be changed for 2005 but if that's not the case then I do have something to look forward to next year! Yippee!

 

Sorry if everyone else is taking this so seriously or misinterpreting my posts. I apologise for the thread hijack.

 

If the 1800 boys want to produce silly engines for class 2/3 then that's up to them.

 

I think maybe it's best for me to go away again now.

 

☹️

 

Guy

 

NN 😳

 

Edited by - No Nuts on 18 Sep 2004 14:23:53

[david nelson]

Thanks for clearing this up. It should put the subject on 1.8K 140BHP to bed for this year. I am sure if we need to revisit this, we wil. I will have no problems raising it if hightly modifided 1.6 win by miles and have top speeds faster than class 4 or 5. If all stays the same, 2005 should be another great year.

 

Is there away we can put this in Low flyer as some people might not use blatchat.

 

David

[Silver 21]

Guy

 

I'm not trying to have a go just perplexed at the fact that people want to try and 'bend' the rules somewhat.

 

(You are always welcome back but make it sooner rather than later otherwise you could find yourself in class 4 or 5 😬 😬 😬 😬 😬)

 

Graham

 

Competition Secretary

2004 Speed Championship - 9 events, 2005 Speed Championship - Watch this space

 

Edited by - Bacon Butty on 18 Sep 2004 14:45:10

[Richard Price]

Guy,

I was not suggesting that you had gained significant advantage by using a Emerald ECU. On the contrary, I think the advantage, at your state of tune, speaking from experience of my current setup still using the standard(non supersport)ECU, is minimal. However, you could use an extensively modified head with large valves, and very wild cams, then map the ECU to suit. The MEMS will not tolerate such a spec.

Thus the MEMS ECU stops people stretching the limits, and also limits the cost!

 

Graham,

I'm sorry. I'll shut up now, and just try harder next year!

[mav]

52mm TB are NOT ALLOWED

 

So no X-power 1.8's then? AIUI they have the 52mm as std.

 

I have a 52mm tb fitted to my 1.6 SS K. Does that now mean I would be in Class 4?