Martin Plant Posted June 5, 2004 Share Posted June 5, 2004 I assume that you have done the "standard" K series relay mod on the low current wire to the solenoid? I faffed around for yonks with mine even fitting a new starter to no avail. Then I found this trick. Stick a 2 quid relay in the starter circuit running a new wire to the battery. Problem solved. Sold the car a week later but current owner tells me its never recurred in 2 years. Martin www.caterhamblackbird.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted June 5, 2004 Share Posted June 5, 2004 I've tried to avoid the relay mod on the basis that it's chasing the symptoms rather than the cause... ...but given that my efforts to attack the source of the woes haven't been completely successful, I might give in and try it. I would pull the starter/solenoid apart again and have a go at the internal contacts - if I had a cheap/plentiful supply of the metal banding strip used to secure the heat-shield blanket to the starter... Keep BC free and open for ALL. Membership No. 43xx Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™ Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris W Posted June 5, 2004 Share Posted June 5, 2004 Myles Putting in the relay mod is not just addressing the symptoms IMHO. It's also addressing the cause. Part of the issue, at least, appears to be the fact that the relay in the MFRU is not really up to the job and gets pitted very easily, thus increasing the circuit resistance and therefore starving the solenoid of current. And, [current squared is proportional to solenoid pulling power] so a reduction of even 10% current results in the pulling power of the solenoid being reduced by 20% and so on. Definitely worth fitting although I do agree that the solenoid contacts are an issue as well. The additional relay though effectively makes the starting process less dependent on having the solenoid contacts in peak condition. Chris 2003 1.8K SV 140hp see it here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Plant Posted June 5, 2004 Share Posted June 5, 2004 Understand the point of view Myles, and I felt the same. I also felt a bit of a twit though after wasting hours, 80 odd quid and skinning who knows how many knuckles to find that for a couple of quid and a ten minutes job I could have solved the problem. Give it a go, you've got nothing to lost and you can take it off again if it doesn't fix it Martin www.caterhamblackbird.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted June 5, 2004 Share Posted June 5, 2004 Oh, all right then.... I'd better get the search-engine humming then. Keep BC free and open for ALL. Membership No. 43xx Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™ Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldbutnotslow Posted June 5, 2004 Author Share Posted June 5, 2004 Hi Martin, Sounds like it may be the answer and as you say for a couple of quid its worth a try! Myles, Post a replay after you have done yours. Ive another track day on the 16th and will report the outcome after this. Grant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strangely Posted June 5, 2004 Share Posted June 5, 2004 I believe that I've done all but one of the common attempted fixes for this problem: completely bypassed the MFRU relay; cleaned the solenoid, including checking all of the electrical connections; checked the battery, and tried another one, but the problem remains. What I haven't done (and will if I ever get time I can spend in the garage) is to run a shorter wire from the relay to the solenoid. If that doesn't work then I will be *really* frustrated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted June 6, 2004 Share Posted June 6, 2004 Right - I know "That seems to have sorted it!" is something I've prematurely said before, but... ...that seeems to have sorted it! I did the relay mod yesterday (gee-d on by the discovery of a left-over relay of the correct type from a recent horn installation (OK, 'missus')) - I will write it up on my site later, but as a quick update, I did quite a bit of hard and hot blatting to and from Millwoods open day today - and despite quite high coolant/oil temps, I had absolutely no problems restarting the car. I dunno how much a relay costs (coupla quid?), but the other components (bit of chunky wire, some spade connectors and a couple of scotchloks) cost less than two quid - and the whole thing took less than 20 minutes (including photography time etc.) - so it's definitely worth a go (but I'd strongly recommend having a fettle of the starter/solenoid and shielding it from heat first... So, jolly good! Thanks. Keep BC free and open for ALL. Membership No. 43xx Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™ Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Plant Posted June 6, 2004 Share Posted June 6, 2004 That's good news Myles Well done Martin www.caterhamblackbird.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldbutnotslow Posted June 7, 2004 Author Share Posted June 7, 2004 Relay fitted likewise. Total cost £8! I will see how it performs after a blat later today I will then go for the heat shielding as per Myles but I'm encouraged to hear that his is working fine. Grant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Martyr Posted June 8, 2004 Share Posted June 8, 2004 Returned from holiday - first hot evening run post stripping and cleaning soleniod etc. CLICK. OK I have to do the relay mod! Where is the write-up? I chucked out my Low Flying with the full parts and mod details Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Plant Posted June 8, 2004 Share Posted June 8, 2004 Its not really complicated enough to need a write up.Get a relay from Halfords of the sort used for auxiliary lights or horns etc. Disconnect the low current wire from the solenoid and connect to the relay. Make up a new wire of suitable guage with spade connectors each end and run from relay to the solenoid. Make up another wire with spade on one end and ring-type connector on other and run from battery to relay. Drill hole in bulkhead and secure relay with self tapper. Make the cables tidy with cable ties etc. Open can of favourite beverage and enjoy Martin www.caterhamblackbird.com Edited by - Martin Plant on 8 Jun 2004 16:22:18 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted June 8, 2004 Share Posted June 8, 2004 Its not really complicated enough to need a write up But to make life really easy.... look at my site here This mixes Chris W's clear instructions (taken from related threads on BC) with pretty clear piccies and additional information. I infamously once wrote up instructions (with pictures) - only slightly tongue-in-cheek - for how to put the car cover on Keep BC free and open for ALL. Membership No. 43xx Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™ Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldbutnotslow Posted June 8, 2004 Author Share Posted June 8, 2004 Got the engine good n' hot yesterday and it started first time even after a 15 minute delay. Woopido!! I will still go for the heat wrap as a precaution though. Myles, Ive got a hood but no instructions!!!!!!!!!!! 😬 😬 😬 Grant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted June 8, 2004 Share Posted June 8, 2004 Sorry - can't help you there Grant - I've never owned a hood... I could probably knock something out on the topic of using a foot-pump if that'd be any use, by way of consolation... Keep BC free and open for ALL. Membership No. 43xx Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™ Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strangely Posted June 8, 2004 Share Posted June 8, 2004 I've now done all the mods (did the direct feed from relay to solenoid on Sunday), and I got the click again today. 🙆🏻 I think fitting a new battery and / or solenoid are my only remaining options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierre Gillet Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 I am quoting here Chris W Quote Myles Putting in the relay mod is not just addressing the symptoms IMHO. It's also addressing the cause. Part of the issue, at least, appears to be the fact that the relay in the MFRU is not really up to the job and gets pitted very easily, thus increasing the circuit resistance and therefore starving the solenoid of current. And, [current squared is proportional to solenoid pulling power] so a reduction of even 10% current results in the pulling power of the solenoid being reduced by 20% and so on. Definitely worth fitting although I do agree that the solenoid contacts are an issue as well. The additional relay though effectively makes the starting process less dependent on having the solenoid contacts in peak condition. Chris Unquote Before implementing Chris' method developed by Myles on his excellent site, i am wondering if it is possible and efficient to sand the contacts of the relay in the MFRU ? Starter is a Brise race, battery RedTop, all less than 12 months old. Seven is 1.6 K 1997 so probably the old MFRU Cheers, Pierre Edited by - Pierre Gillet on 12 Dec 2005 16:26:04 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierre Gillet Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 ...or tu use freon to clean the contacts . Which is best ? Pierre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierre Gillet Posted December 14, 2005 Share Posted December 14, 2005 Somebody must have done that already 😬 Pierre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierre Gillet Posted December 15, 2005 Share Posted December 15, 2005 Job done. I opened the MFRU with a cutter. Seemed to be silicon-sealed. Everything was clean in it. I sprayed some Loctite freon on the contacts of the 4 relays in the hope of de-oxydizing the contacts if needed. I then used some silicon to seal the cover back. Just have to wait till the next click and I will then add a relay. Car in 1.6 K 1997 and MFRU is the old type as per Angus site. Ref number is YMB 100 22-F. I wonder if it still available at Rover dealers Pierre Edited by - Pierre Gillet on 15 Dec 2005 11:57:43 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Heseltine Posted December 16, 2005 Share Posted December 16, 2005 I had the dreaded click around 4 years ago on my 1600K series. I had read about the relay fix but was not sure that would cure the problem. Took starter off car, cleaned round the solenoid and then examined the low volatge connection pillar on the solenoid witha very bright light and a good magnifying glass. What I found was a hairline crack in the solder where the solid wire comes out of the solenoid and into the pillar base. I used a jewellers welding torch and a solder sucker and removed all the solder from the join very carefully. Having done this I then stripped solenoid and cleaned it, but it did not really need this doing. Reassembled solenoid and then resoldered the join. So no click for the last four years. I think I may now need to take another look. I no longer get the dreaded click, but when the engine is hot I occasionally get nothing whatsoever. Tapped the connection and it appeared to work!!!! I may remove the pillar in its entirety and run a cable soldered directly into the solenoid. Colin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierre Gillet Posted December 17, 2005 Share Posted December 17, 2005 Thanks Colin You described very well the issue of solders which was not so clear to me until you did. Is the Brise starter also prone to this solder disease ? Pierre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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