StephaneM Posted May 3, 2004 Share Posted May 3, 2004 Hello, I was at Le Mans this week end wis my car wich is a VX with the Caterham dry sump kit (+ SBD208). I had a problem with it & I would like to know if someone already had this bad experience and/or have ideas about it... - The Oil pressure warning lamp switched on in one curve (during 1 or 2 seconds), was OK in next straight, switched on once again in next curve. I stopped & switched off the engine. - Back to the pits, I saw that I lost the oil pump belt... I have the kit for ~1000km & 3 track days without any problems... I installed a new belt, the pump didn't have hard point during the rotation... The engine was OK, I had a ~5km test drive around the track (till Arnage) & I had all the power without bad noise. - I went once again on track, & after 1 lap and a half, I had the same problem! - Back to the pits, I installed a new belt, the idle was OK, but when I reved over 2000, I had a not very loud "tac tac tac noise in the engine wich was still hot... I decided to stop before a big problem. - yesterday evening, back to home, I decided to try to switch on the engine to check if the noise is still over 2000 or not. The "tac tac" noise was very loud from the beginning! much louder when engine is cold. I switched as quickly as I can. What are your opinions about that? I cannot understand how I lost 2 times the belt... after that, I cannot understand why the noise is so much louder when engine is cold... What to do now, take away the oil pan & see bellow? take away the head? Thanks in advance. Cheers Stéphane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevefoster Posted May 3, 2004 Share Posted May 3, 2004 Do you have a 2 or 3 stage dry sump pump? If you have a 3 stage one then the belt coming off will have resulted in total oil pressure loss from the outset and no oil circulation and quite possibly some mechanical damage to bearings / cams etc depending on how long you drove it and and under what load. This pump is meant for high revving engines and big power as the internal oil pump shaft cannot cope. This also equals high expense engine. The 2 stage pump only scavenges and uses the original pressure pump fine to 7000-7250 rpm. So the belt coming off would mean the oil level in the pan would rise as the oil level in the tank drops. Possible symptoms here would be loss of oil pressure due to no more oil in the tank or if you have a big tank and lots of oil the crank case will fill up, you may feel power loss due to massive windage (crank hits oil) and then the cylinders could hydraulic lock. I wonder why the belt came off. There is no tensioner system on the VX only a toothed belt that should sit squarely on the pulley of the pump that is square to the machined faces of the block and the engine mount. I assume you are running the add on crank pulley that has quite deep belt guide channels. I've run this for two seasons without any problems and some 2000 road miles. I change the belt every yr and check it and the alt belt after every session or outing. I made and an undertray from nose back to the sump to protect the cambelt and the dry sump belt form rubbish or stone ingress. I have seen pictures of some folks cam pulleys and dry sump pulleys (soft ali) and they look shot blasted from all the rubbish that gets in there. Mine are as new, thanks to the undertray. Did your alternator belt come off and take the dry sump belt off? That can happen if you are using very high RPM and the normal V type belt. If the clunk / noise you have is from the bottom end I would pull the sump off and look for bearing wear / failure. If top end, then then remove the cams and inspect. Oil stavation will be quite visible. If the main bearing are trashed you may need a crank re-grind depending on the state of the bearing faces. If all smooth and level then ok. If top and bottom are ok then suspect the big end bearings. You can remove a cap with the engine in situe. Again the crank bearing face and shells should be examined. If all of these are ok then the little end bearings... Head off and pop the pistons out of the top and examine. If the crank needs attention then it's engine out to remove the crank before you do any of the other above. These external belt systems scare the hell out of me.... It like putting the most critical thing an engine has, exposed outside the engine and open to the under car elements (stones from gravel traps / plastic bags on the road etc etc). I would like to devise a belt loss warning system so that you get some warning at least. A good idea for the 2 stage pump, but less warning before all oil pressure goes on the 3 stage pump. An inductive sensor and circuit to trigger a lamp if the pulley ceases to turn would be possible. It would be interesting to put a video camera to record what these belts do at 7000 rpm. Is the alt belt starting to climb off it's pulley, does the dry sump belt track right at high rpm etc etc. I might do this on mine out of interest. I have a 35psi oil pressure sensor wired to a very bright high intensity LED's in my light of sight, so no delay in seeing them and bright even in direct sunlight. I do hope it not too serious, but it does sound it. Hants (North) and Berkshire Area club site here My racing info site here Edited by - stevefoster on 3 May 2004 09:50:23 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFA Posted May 3, 2004 Share Posted May 3, 2004 HI Stephane, I think you have to identify the noise. Is it a tappet noise from the top of the engine (does it get louder if you take the filler cap off the cam cover?? (if so this is good news as it could be just the tappets have no oil in them) ....or is it a clunking which is loudest as the engine speed is actually increasing and less when you run a stable RPM?? (This will be big end bearing failure) The system you have uses a 2 stage pump, so you will have a bit more "safety time" before you do real damage. The problem with the belt coming off is not unusual if it happens rarely, but for it to happen twice suggests there is a reason. Check the pump body is mounted tight to the engine mount and the engine block. Also check the lugs on the pump through which the pump bolts have not sheared off the main pump body - I have seen this before. Give me a call if you get stuck, or I can listen to your engine over the phone! Fat Arn Slay the K. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephaneM Posted May 3, 2004 Author Share Posted May 3, 2004 Thaks a lot fot your help I have the original Caterham DS system, so 2 stages... I will take away parts to check all what you explained... Arnie, I'm very afraid to start once again enfine with this noise... One thing: the pump pulley is hard to turn.... harder than what I remind it was... It should be quite as easy as the alternator one, shouldn't it? perhaps the pump has a problem... but it is new! Do someone already have this one pump problem? Cheers Stéphane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevefoster Posted May 3, 2004 Share Posted May 3, 2004 Not had any probs with my pump but if for some reason it was too stiff it would destroy / throw the belt. Hants (North) and Berkshire Area club site here My racing info site here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StewartG Posted May 3, 2004 Share Posted May 3, 2004 Sounds like the pump has a problem and that's what's throwing off the belt although I'm not aware these are known tobe troublesome, assuming it's the Caterham/Titan one, if it's an SBD one I have no expereience of them. As mentioned this would empty the tank and deposit all the oil into the sump where it cannot be sucked into the internal pressure pump and so the oil pressure will fail If the engine has run with low oil pressure the hydraulic lifters will empty and even if the oil pressure is restored they will take some time to refill, I'm guessing at several minutes, and so the tappetts will rattle horribly. Loss of oil pressure may have caused all sorts of other problems and associated nasty noises of course. I don't remember my pump having much resistance to hand cranking at all. If I were you I'd repair or replace the pump, check the cam bearings, main bearing and big end bearings for signs of overheating. I assume the cam bearings may lose lubrication first as the others are at least getting splashed with the overfull contents of the sump and the cam ones are the easiest to check. If the bearings don't look like they've got too hot maybe you could try starting the engine keeping a close eye on the oil pressure and making sure oil is being pumped back to the tank but expect the lifters to rattle until they refill. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marius Posted May 3, 2004 Share Posted May 3, 2004 Stephane, I have just installed a brand new Caterham/Titan pump it turns very easily. Sounds like the reason for the belt failure. My VX ran "dry" for about 5-15 seconds on track (not quite sure when it happened), luckily at the end of the season so the engine had to come out anyway. I had to replace all main bearings as they had turned bright blue at some places due to the oil starvation. Hope the rattling noise is something different & more simple but it doesn´t sound that good indeed... ☹️ Marius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephaneM Posted May 3, 2004 Author Share Posted May 3, 2004 I have just take away the cam cover. All seems normal, there is oil & it seems it was not dry... I began to take away the sump pan. there are two filters just before the 2 pipes wich enter in the pump. I found fibres 'like textile fibres in the rear one... I took away the 12 M5 screws of the pan wich are screwed on the block & the 2 M8 screws wich are screwed on the bellhousing. I didn't succed to remove easily the pan (perhaps because there are some "loctite" past between pan & block... too tired for this evening, I will have the surprise tomorrow! Do I have only to pull on it or do I have to have a special operation? Thanks, Cheers Stéphane... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFA Posted May 3, 2004 Share Posted May 3, 2004 Stephane, The sump is attached to the block witha special adhesive sealant made by GM. You may need to prise the sump away from the block! Fat Arn Slay the K. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irrelevant Posted May 3, 2004 Share Posted May 3, 2004 I would like to devise a belt loss warning system so that you get some warning at least stevefoster: You can buy cut off switches that cut the engine if oil pressure is lost. There are various types, some cut the engine straight away, others are configurable so will not cut the engine for a short loss of pressure. They are designed for exactly this type of installation and seem a wise investment. J351 TPE - In one piece Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevefoster Posted May 4, 2004 Share Posted May 4, 2004 Hi Adam, With the 2 stage pump belt coming off the oil pressure is not lost until all the oil in the tank is gone. I'm not sure at what point oil pressure is lost in this scenario. Hence the need for a belt off warning. Stéphane, Fibres in one of the filters does not sound good. If there are enough of them then that could have gummed the pump up making it hard to turn. Hants (North) and Berkshire Area club site here My racing info site here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephaneM Posted May 4, 2004 Author Share Posted May 4, 2004 I cannot explain how fibre arrived here... In this case, is the pump dead??? cheers... Stéphane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevefoster Posted May 4, 2004 Share Posted May 4, 2004 I have not taken my pump apart but I assume they are serviceable. The question is where did the fibres come from? + How many (if any) are still in the engine? Hants (North) and Berkshire Area club site here My racing info site here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephaneM Posted May 5, 2004 Author Share Posted May 5, 2004 Yes, that is the question... On the other hand, this (small) amount of fibres were blocked by the filter wich is in the sump, just before the tube wich goes from the sump to the pump. Not sure it is the reason why I have a pump failure... I have perhaps an explaination... I took away the sump & all seems OK. No steel parts, conrods seems OK as the crankshaft... I had a look to the pump belt wich is new, except 2 or 3 engine starts... it is a little weared on one side of the teeths... I think that perhaps, when oil was hot, the belt didn't slide on the pump pulley at iddle, & slided a little when engine reved a little more... with a small "clac clac" noise. When engine was cold as oil, the pump was harder, and the pump slided a lot on the pump pilley, with a very loud "clac clac" noise... What do you think about it? Next step is pump servicing... To take away the right engine support, I think I have only to support the engine with a jack... Am I right? Cheers Stéphane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevefoster Posted May 5, 2004 Share Posted May 5, 2004 Jep. Jack on suitable place on bottom of engine (have to be careful not to damage sump face or engine hoist. Hants (North) and Berkshire Area club site here My racing info site here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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