Andrew Russell Posted March 16, 2001 Share Posted March 16, 2001 To ready my car for the Spring, I feel that it is high time to change the foam insert in the sump and undertake a few other little jobs. Never having taken the sump off before on this car, it is to be a new venture... I understand from Caterham that I need two sump gaskets...why is this and do you just Hylomar them to the relevant surfaces? The foam insert is just placed in the sump before it is refitted to the block....no other form of retention? I am also replacing all the water hoses and refilling the system. How is the best way to avoid air locks... my radiator does not have a bleed valve. I recall that I should refill with the front of the car raised as high as possible. Is that right. Any advice welcome, before I start..... Thanks Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevefoster Posted March 16, 2001 Share Posted March 16, 2001 I look forward to the postings on the sump gasket. Mine will need doing next year... As for airlocks. I fill her up as much as poss. Run the engine until warm and thermostat is open (normal operating temp) a trip round the block is more fun than fast idle. With the engine running jack her up on my 0.5m high trolley jack and open the bleed screw carefully. Add more water as necessary. Through the removed bleed srcre hole. There isn't pressure in the system to blow water out when I have done this (done it twice so far). Incidentally doing this I managed to get too much water in the system. Which manifested itself as little puddle of water under the car coming from the expansion tank pressure relief cap! The level was too high at cold then too. Dropping the level by sucking some out cured the problem! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Wong1697456877 Posted March 16, 2001 Share Posted March 16, 2001 When you take the sump off, you should see a metal baffle plate between the 2 gaskets. (If this is missing - like mine was - get one. The foam is free to be chewed up by the crank if it's not there. To get the baffle plate off, you need to remove the oil pickup which is held to the oil pump by 2 bolts and a third bolt holds it to the block - Make sure you locktite these when you put them back in. The oil pump ones are easy to strip. You MUST use two gaskets. (One on either side of the plate). Mr cheapskate here tried one and the resultant stress on the 2 bolts that go through the bell housing caused a crack in the bell housing! The gaskets are good and I normally use a sealant as well. Good luck ! Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Russell Posted March 16, 2001 Author Share Posted March 16, 2001 Thank you for that, Alex. Don't you ever sleep! I've got a suspicion that my baffle plate is missing as there is very little visible between the cast sump and the block now. I presume that if it was there, the baffle plate and two gaskets, would be visible from the exterior? Is the baffle plate a Vauxhall part or a Caterham bit? Strangely, when I ordered the insert and gaskets from Caterham, I asked about the 'baffle plate' and none was mentioned!! That was why I put up this thread...... Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Wong1697456877 Posted March 16, 2001 Share Posted March 16, 2001 If you haven't got one, I've got mine which I could let go for a donation to NTL - I'd rather hang on to it for a bit though until the dry sump gear (and my engine!) is all in and working. It's a Vx part. I hope you don't mind big e-mails as I've sent you a file (750k) that you might find helpful. It's a PDF file so you'll need Acrobat to read it. Cheers, Alex powered by a coffee that comes in a bright red jar called Rocket Fuel (really!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Russell Posted March 16, 2001 Author Share Posted March 16, 2001 Alex Thank you. I don't have Acrobat at home, but do at work. Could you send the file again to me at 'andrew.russell@langleys.co.uk' As I hope to do the jobs this weekend I may pass on your kind offer re the plate.....I have to visit a dealer!! Hope that it's only coffee your taking..... Best wishes with the rebuild and sorry for detaining you. Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevefoster Posted March 16, 2001 Share Posted March 16, 2001 Alex could you send me the file too? Any good info is much appreciated. Work would be best. steve.foster@etl.ericsson.se Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Wong1697456877 Posted March 16, 2001 Share Posted March 16, 2001 It's on it's way.... Cheers, Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I reply to every thread Posted March 16, 2001 Share Posted March 16, 2001 Can I have the file as well Alex. I might need it with what I'm planning. Remember Cams - not Injectors! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Russell Posted March 16, 2001 Author Share Posted March 16, 2001 Alex, Thank you....all received and very interesting. Why is nothing ever straight forward! Now, what about bleeding the radiator with no bleed valve? Anybody any clues, let's give Alex a chance to finish his car... Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevefoster Posted March 16, 2001 Share Posted March 16, 2001 If no bleed valve... are you running a header tank system? If you are then you could try loosening off the top hose to allow air out. Hold a thick towel around it and see what happens as you loosen the hose clip. Do not remove the hose of course. Again with the engine running and nose high up toy might get air out. I think it is Rover's that suffer air locks and overheating probs due to this not VX's or the Zetec's I know of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Russell Posted March 16, 2001 Author Share Posted March 16, 2001 Yes, I run a header tank and had thought about loosening the top hose to let any air bleed out....thanks. Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StewartG Posted March 16, 2001 Share Posted March 16, 2001 Andrew, the baffle plate is a Vauxhall part I saw it on the microfische at the Vx garage when I was getting the two new gaskets. It's original purpose was to stop the crank whipping the oil into too much of a frenzy. When you fit the new foam block make sure it's not too close to the oil pick-up it can partially block it. Also while you're at it make sure the oil pick up is as close to the bottom of the sump as is possible but it must not touch as under high rev suction it can get pulled down onto the sump bottom and no oil can be picked up. If the pick up is too high it's easier for air to get sucked up when the oil has slopped about elsewhere, under braking or heavy right hand cornering. Hopefully your pick-up pipe is terminated in a trumpet bell mouth with some gauze over it, this gives pick-up over a large area and protects the pump from any crud in the sump if not while you've got it all in bits it might be worth a little mod. Make sure you've got the little pick-up pipe steadying clip this takes some of the strain off of the two bolts that secure the pipe to the oil pump. And finally whilst you're down there check the filter mounting for crud and have a look at the oil pressure relief valve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul jacobs Posted March 18, 2001 Share Posted March 18, 2001 Whilst we're talking vauxhall sumps, perhaps someone can tell me if the windage tray that should be fitted to a wet sump to stop the oil being churned up, is needed when a dry sump system is fitted? Theoreticaly there should be very little oil in the sump pan once the engine is running. I have always had some very annoying oil leaks in that area, and I feel that if I could do away with one of the gaskets, and the windage tray, I could make a better seal around the sump flange. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFA Posted March 18, 2001 Share Posted March 18, 2001 Paul, I run single gasket sump to block without the tray and have done for 6 years - no problem! I am of course dry sump and my systme although not fully Catherham uses the Caterham sump pan. Arnie Webb The Fat Bloke blush.gif in a Slow Old Vauxhall wink.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StewartG Posted March 18, 2001 Share Posted March 18, 2001 I don't think the windage plate is needed in a dry sump installation as the Caterham dry sump pan is a totally different animal to the wet pan and the windage plate is effectively built in. I thought the dry sump pan should be fitted without a gasket, just sealed, as the face that mates with the oil pump has to locate precisely Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFA Posted March 18, 2001 Share Posted March 18, 2001 I have a 3 stage (pressure and scavenge) external pump so my car is different.... Arnie Webb The Fat Bloke blush.gif in a Slow Old Vauxhall wink.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul jacobs Posted March 18, 2001 Share Posted March 18, 2001 Arnie, Didn't I remember you posting earlier that you still had a small leak from this area too. Have you managed to identify where it is coming from and how have you managed to stop it? I was speaking to a Vauxhall fitter the other week, and he was saying that a lot of the 16v engines he sees have leaks from the sump flange, which didn't fill me with a lot of hope in curing mine, although I did hear that Steve Broughton is trying to develop a dry sump pan with a built in rubber seal which may help ['though I know your feelings about this gentleman!] Next time I have my pan off, I will try replacing it without the windage tray and see what effect this has. Thanks for your reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFA Posted March 18, 2001 Share Posted March 18, 2001 My previous leak was from the piping design of SBD's origin. During this rebuild I completely re-did the plumbing between the pump and the pan using much better quality conectors than his swaged design. The hoses now have zero pre-load on them to get things to fit together. The leak I had on initial startup turned out to be from the cam cover gasket,(bolts vibrated loose where I didn't locktite them, so many times did I check the cam timing!) and the oil was running down the side of the head to the crank front pulley so it looked like the leak was from the joint between the sump pan/front cover/block Took a while to resolve as the oil takes a while to make it right down the front of the engine- it was only a small leak in the first place! Arnie Webb The Fat Bloke blush.gif in a Slow Old Vauxhall wink.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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