Fuel hoses generally "not good"? - was "Fuel hose spec - is Gates 3225 fuel hose good for ethanol? Ans: Yes"

[anthonym]

Reason for the hose quality question is well explained here.

What it and this thread amount to is to check your fuel hoses now for unexpected non ethanol related degradation.

 

ORIGINAL OPENING POST

MULTI FUEL GATES AUTO MASTER 8MMMULTI CARBURANT UNIVERSALKRAFTSTOFF GATES 3225 GL113018 2

It says this on it (above)

Anthony

edit: can't find much on R14 - edit now see below 🙂

Edited October 22, 2023 by anthonym
R14 COMMENT

[SM25T]

[anthonym]

Perfect. Thanks 🙂

[Guy Lowe]

Interested in this as I am intending to replace all my fuel lines to run run E10 fuel, but don’t want to have to buy two different types of hose.

So what are the specifications for hose suitable for E10 petrol on high pressure injection systems? Please

Guy

[Jonathan Kay]

All hoses that reach the relevant automotive standards have been compatible with 10% ethanol for several decades. There's a lot on this in the archives, IIRC including the SAE and ASTM standards.

But:

1 Sevens last a long time and rubber and similar components should be considered to have a finite life. So inspection and replacement should be in service schedules.

2 Sevens often rely on bits and pieces. And that opens the possibility of using components and materials that don't meet automotive standards. IIUC this once happened with some fuel system components from a respected specialist supplier.

Jonathan

[Gridgway]

There's quite a lot of different info on R6, R9 etc.  So for R6 this one has a working pressure of 20 bar and a burst pressure of 60 bar

https://www.autosiliconehoses.com/rubber-hose-fuel-oil-nbr-pipe-automotive-hoses-black.html

What I think I know is that R6 is also ok for ethanol (possibly up to E85).  There is then R9 which is much more expensive (so must be better) which principally has a (much) lower permeation of fuel.

I think that R6 is ok, but I have read that higher permeation makes the cracks appear faster, so it's just a matter of time (as it will be for R9 as well).

I'm not a definitive source on this, so if anyone is, then please chime in.

[anthonym]

I am watching this fuel hoses video: 

Minute 20: R6 and R9

Minute 28:48 Caterham hose 

"Go silicon for coolant hoses"

He says"

 

Quote

 

7,147 views 13 Jan 2023

Even if you don't watch this video, if you own a car with rubber fuel lines, go and inspect them - closely! Nothing scientific in this, it's just my experiences and findings in over 10 years of restoring cars and installing new fuel hoses to them, only to then find out they've perished and failed 18months later."

 

 

 

and it is VERY interesting, he's a car rebuilder telling his story about fuel hoses, R6 R9 etc. 

All the standards notwithstanding. I have an R6 that looks like this below: (two pics, one to show the rubber, t'other to show it in context), given I am on carbs with fuel pressure about 2 psi (that's TWO).

and like the man says in his video, my car has done less than 1,000  miles (800 in two days, the rest just a guess of test miles since)  since rebuild, BUT these hoses were fitted maybe three years ago. So any effect is time based not fuel based. 

I am wondering if he will conclude to not use rubber hoses.. we'll see, not got there yet. I will report back.AND : The comments are also a good read. He is actively NOT blaming ethanol. He suspects "cheap rubber". He says there are (currently) good suppliers (but dare not name them). One commenter says GATES is good, in fact "Gates Barricade".

Both he and my builder say to use E5 fuel in pre 2006 non daily driver cars - so what I call 98 presumably, yet I already do that, BUT until the car arrived with me I guess it was all being soused in "95".

Anthony

 

Edited October 21, 2023 by anthonym
tried to clarify E5 use recommendation

[SM25T]

That's a seriously compromised bit of hose 🫣

[anthonym]

you should see that video above go to minute 20 if(and 28:48 a Caterham hose)  you are in a hurry, but all of it is relevant and interesting.

Edited October 21, 2023 by anthonym
added Caterham hose

[7 wonders of the world]

Guy,

You need R14 Barricade hose made by Gates 

I had old R6 which perrished, replaced with Codan R9 and I posted the photos after 1 years, very badly cracked, R14 Barricade is suitable for up to 85% Ethanol and the liner prevents the vapour permetating which accelerates deterioration and is still in perfect condition and meets the pressure requirements for Injection use, theres little difference in price going for the low pressure version which you may find on some injetion cars but only on the return line.

You only need a small quanitiy so its not a major expense to use the right product for a safety critical component.

You can buy 25'and 5o' rolls if you want to club together to split it

 

[7 wonders of the world]

Gates 4219BF is the one you need

I bought a 25' roll from Parts in motion - the UK arm of Autodoc

25' roll parts number

 

Edited October 21, 2023 by 7 wonders of the world

[anthonym]

I've ordered some. It's disconcerting that all the standards such as SAE etc do not seem to be achieving what we need.

quoted from here: https://www.gates.com/gb/en/fluid-power/engine-hose/fuel-line-hose.p.4219-000000-000003.v.4219-06039.html

Quote

approved for use with leaded and unleaded petrol, diesel, biodiesel up to B-100, E-10, E-15, E-85, 100% methanol, ethanol and gasohol fuels

100% Ethanol..

Edited October 21, 2023 by anthonym
deleted image

[Gridgway]

Just looked up R14, seems to have a 50psi max.  Not suitable for fuel injection 

[7 wonders of the world]

click on the link in my last post  ( why aren't the posts numbered anymore??) and you see the fuel injection version is 225psi, you probalby looked a a low pressure R14 hose

Edited October 21, 2023 by 7 wonders of the world

[Gridgway]

It's a very strange world of R standards as that hose in its own words far exceeds R14 in almost all regards.  I assume one of those is the working pressure.

What is it about it that gives confidence that it won't crack like all the others I wonder?

And why do they degrade so badly when they are sold as fuel hose suitable for fuel (with ethanol)?

The only valuable thing from the totally dire video above was the idea that hoses don't degrade because of ethanol but because they are basically crap!!

The hoses on my BDR had completely disintegrated.  Annoyingly it was last used in 2008, so I can't definitively tell whether it had ethanol or not as 2008 was when e5 started to be introduced.

What do modern cars use and is that what we should be using, not this useless rubber stuff?

[7 wonders of the world]

There are many fuel types and many operteraing pressures and pplications, its don to the person fitting them to ensure the hose and application are correct for one another, you cant blame the hose  manufacturers for that,

providing you use a quality product which meets these requirements you should have no problems,

OEM often use semi rigid plastic lines preformed to shape, though these are no imune form issue, crackingQR ends and chaffing in not correctly restrainded in clips, no doubt these are cheaper to.

Fuel ines are no different to and other hose, or rubber component, my original coolant hoses supplied by CC in 2006 lasted 5  months before 3 showed heavy degredation, both steering rack boots are now under 2  years old now and both need replacing.... all components are avaialble at multiple price points and quality levels.

[Gridgway]

Well yes I am blaming the fuel hose manufacturers.  R6 is perfectly good for fuel and E10, why doesn't it last?

[anthonym]

I'm going to use the Gates R14 for the rear fuel line and the Gates 3225 for the front and monitor to see. Might put a bit of R14 up front too just because it's easier to see there.

edit: rear to front is a plastic looking tube.

Edited October 22, 2023 by anthonym

[anthonym]

and this looks like another one:

rear at pump this time. Just confirms the to do list.