CSR Sump Guard

[Mark w]

James that round bar is at the front of the engine and projects below the ribs on the sump  , just had a look under my car again and this is the rear of the sump pan where it meets the bell housing . Some minor scuffs ( it hits here on short lateral speed humps ) but not too bad after 6 years .
have you got a photo of the plastic wedge in situ ?

[Shortshift]

Yup - coming up...

A bit of digging does suggest that the 620R does indeed have a Pace* drysump system, and is therefore different in terms of ground clearance from both the Cosworth system fitted to CSRs and the Raceline (Caterham specific) system fitted to R420s and R500s.  There's also an aftermarket (non-Caterham specific) Raceline kit for Duratecs.  Amazing what you learn - who knew??

Anyway, here are two images of the plastic wedge that protects the bellhousing 'step' face on my R500.  Suspect that is of no use on a 620R, though, as different sump and also different bellhousing (for Sadev ilo Quaife boxes).

James

* Edited on 9/5/20 to advise that the dry sump fitted to Mark W's 620R is not from Pace but is Cosworth's own design, as available over the counter to purchase from Cosworth.

 

[7 wonders of the world]

Whilst the 'Bull bar' will spread the load to a point it will offer little protection from a compression impact.

The Raceline offer 35mm more clearance on the vulnerable front edge Mark, the step to the bell housing is only a real issue on speed hump which the nylon deals with nicely, however you cam change to the compact bell housing and flywheel to loose this altogether.

Interesting yours run the Cosworth sump with external pipework where as James has the internal plumbed version, are you still running the bell tank Mark or do you have a stand alone oil tank..?

 

 

[Mark w]

Correct , absolutely no use on a 620 ! 

The rear end of the 620R sump and bell housing are flush ( well the bell housing is about 3-4mm higher than the sump ) and the gearbox is higher still .

i will now stop my thread high jack and await photos of the patented JB CSR sump protector ! 

[Mark w]

Sorry 7 Wonders . 
 

ive thread highjacked and confused you . James knew I had a 620R but I didn't state this in my original post ☹️

[Mark w]

Side view for completeness

[Shortshift]

Interesting Mark.  A very different side-on profile for the 620 dry sump (which, as I said, I believe is a Pace* version).  Out of interest, what is your ground clearance at the lowest point (looks to be just in front of the block/bellhousing interface, assuming front of car is to the left of image)?

James

* Edited on 9/5/20 to confirm that the dry sump fitted to Mark W's 620R is not from Pace but is another variant of a Cosworth sump, available directly from them.

[Mark w]

Left to Right 

70mm under bull bar

72mm under front of sump

80mm under middle of sump 

70mm under rear of sump / bell housing 

from which I conclude my garage floor is not very level ! 
 

The profile of the sump pan suggests that the rear of the sump should be lower than the 72mm at the front , maybe by 10mm but the engine seems to rake down towards the front in the chassis which partly counteracts that

Meaning  that if the front was say 70mm the rear wouldn't be 60mm  but maybe 65mm. ( does that make sense ?) 

The car was flat floored by PGM 

 

[Shortshift]

Thanks Mark.  Maybe PGM can flat-floor your garage floor too!

James

[Mark w]

Ha Ha 

Whats the clearance on an R500 and CSR ?

[Shortshift]

I think the R500 is about 70mm under the bellhousing (where the nylon wedge is) but only 62mm under the front face of the Cosworth designed dry sump casting on the CSR.  Which isn't enough to allow stress-free motoring!

I'd like to see the CSR figure around (preferably at or in excess of) 70mm if possible, mainly through moving from CR500s to ZZRs, and to have the added peace of mind of my own version of a front-of-engine slidey-wedgey thing as well. 

James

[Mark w]

The old rule of thumb used to be a coke can which I've just measured at 66-67mm .

 

[Mark w]

Look what I found on my sump not the easiest thing to photograph in 70mm of space but you get the idea .

[Shortshift]

Ooohhhh...  Well that puts a cat amongst the (my) dry sump pigeon theories...

James

[7 wonders of the world]

As I suspected it the same as yours James,

This is the same variant I bought and sold straight on as the ground clearance is the same as a wet sump.

The pumps on this set up can be accessed from either side of the sump.

Mark where is your oil tank please just out of curiosity....?

 

 

 

[Shortshift]

So if you're right, Neil, the 620R has the same (or very similar) dry sump from Cosworth as used on the CSRs...  Well well.*

Just thinking about why the ground clearance is better (a smidge) on the 620R than the CSR but it might be because the 2.3 litre engine in the CSR is taller than the 2.0 litre version and therefore is positioned a bit lower in the car.  Hmmm...

James
 

* Edited on 9/5/20 to advise that the sump fitted to 620s is not the same as the Cosworth sump fitted to CSRs.  Further detail later on in the thread...

[7 wonders of the world]

AFAIK all the 620's came with the Raceline DS, (though they do use a Pace spun DS tank at the end of a short footwell) as this had been proven on the R500, locating a 3 stage external Pace pump would certainly be a challenge along with the alternator and Rotrex especially in the confines of an S3 !

Where did you come across that James..?

[Mark w]

This is my car in build , i got an invite to Dartford to check they were doing it correctly  ,the dry sump tank is the round tank in front of the passenger foot well.

This photo is a screen grab from a film that was made about Caterham and the assembly line/ build process  , it just so happens that the engine install part featured my car ! quite a good view of the sump ....

[Mark w]

Dont forget my 620R was one of the first batch of 7no   customer cars built , it may be that they changed from Cosworth to AN Other ( to save money ? ) at some later date .

[Shortshift]

THIS SUMMARY POST HAS BEEN UPDATED ON 9/5/20 AND CAN BE SEEN LATER IN THE THREAD

Replying to #42

Neil - sorry, jumping around a bit here.  What Mark W has established is that his 620R is built with a Cosworth dry sump (the neme is cast in to the underside) so, when you said "it's the same as yours" I assumed you meant the Cosworth sump as fitted to my CSR.  Clearly not so as the sump pictured above during the build of Mark's car is quite different from my CSR sump.

More generally and summarising, then, we seem to have:

(a) CSR standard fit - deep Cosworth pan (and worryingly little ground clearance) with vertical front cooling fins and integrated pipework for the bellhousing oil tank, no provision for front-mounted tubular sump guard/bar.

(b) Aftermarket Cosworth kit as sold several years ago by Caterham Cars as a retrofit kit - deep Cosworth pan with angled front cooling fins, same ground clearance issues and different plumbing arrangements to support external oil tank.  Caterham cast-in branding.   I think you have experience of this version, Neil?

© Cosworth's own branded dry sump pan (not seen but presumably what you get when you purchase a Duratec dry sump from Cosworth, as per their brochure).

(d) Cosworth pan as fitted to Mark W's 620R, which appears to have smaller cooling fins than (a) or (b) and might even have a different pan profile in side view.  Better ground clearance than (a) or (b), too and somehow capable of taking a front mounted tubular sump guard/bar.

(e) R500 (and R420??) standard fit Caterham branded Raceline dry sump fit - with shallow pan, improved ground clearance under engine (leading to ground clearance issues at the interface to the deeper bellhousing).  No provion for front-of-engine tubular sump guard/bar.

(f) Raceline's own version of their dry sump for fitment to Duratecs, (not branded Caterham) but otherwise very similar to (e)

(g) 620R fit (if different to the sump that is fitted to Mark W's car).

Blimey.  Lockdown is providing too much time...  But getting to the bottom of this might be useful reference material for future readers.

What we really need is Mic Attree to come along and explain all...

James

 

[Mark w]

I will wheel my car out of the garage tomorrow and take some proper dimensions the most important being the block face to bottom of sump profile .

[David Brown]

For further information, on my CSR I have 70mm clearance under the front of the sump. I also have 90 mm under the strengthening bar below the bell housing which is the bit that catches on speed bumps. I raised the suspension all round by a few mm a few years ago for added piece of mind. 

[7 wonders of the world]

Hi James,

I think you'll find aside form slight cosmetic and subtle dimensional differences, clipped fins etc the Cosworth options (A,B & C) are all the same,  in terms of pump locations etc yours can be plumbed from the other side externally buy swopping the blanking plugs over, thats the model I briefly had.

Raceline version is available with either Raceline or Caterham cast into the underside depending upon the retailer, naturally the later is more expensive !

I hadn't realised that early 620's ran with the Cosworth, I wonder if CC were simply using up stock form their part department prior to moving to the Raceline option which was on the last one I cast an eye over..?

The difference in oil tanks between the triangular front mounted version on the 420 and the round Pace footwell tank is purely for underbonet geography as space is in pretty short supply  ISTR the 620 uses dry break oil lines too.

All interesting stuff though   

[Mark w]

 

response to my request on the 620 forum . Different casting to mine as the letters have sharper edges .

i am amazed there are so many differences .

[Frogman]

James, sadly I am a long way from my car so cannot contribute but I am following this with interest and wanted to let you know I am grateful for the work you have put into this and look forward to a definitive solution, fingers crossed.