Roll Bar Debate 2018

[AndrewB]

A place to discuss the Lotus 7 Club required track day roll over bar vs the standard one that comes with your car from Caterham. 

I will have a quick trawl through the other lotus name thread and cut and paste some of the comments here.

[AndrewB]

Post #76 by AndrewB

Fitting isn't an issue Stu, I built the car myself and so swapping a bar, dropping the rear spring/damper and changing a few bolts is not an issue.  The point is that other track day organisers do not require it.

It is great to see the trackday program growing and doing so well but is it open to everyone in the Lotus Club?  No it isn't.  We were told it was being discussed but there has been nothing for 6 months or so.  Despite the weather I had a good day at the Donnington Club Track Day which was run by Book a Track who allow normal roll bars.  

[AndrewB]

Post #77 by SForshaw

Andrew, time to face reality, it might be discussed further and possibly until the cows come home, but having ruled many years ago that for "club" days the FIA bar is the minimum requirement, it isn't going to change. Consider that during that time there's been a move to a full cage for competition use. If it changed and there was a serious incident, I wouldn't want to be the member of the MT that had to justify the change back to a lesser bar and I'm sure you wouldn't either. I'm all for change and progress, reverting to a standard bar would not be progress.

Stu.

[AndrewB]

Post #82 from AndrewB

Stu, the last official club message I saw on here was that the roll bar was being discussed and we would be informed of any changes.  If you are on the MT and you are confirming there will be no change then at least I now know that for sure.  

As for any fallout for the MT members from a change to a different, but still adequate bar according to professional track day organisers, then I seriously doubt there would be any.  I suspect that comment / train of thought was invented to protect the criteria for a semi FIA roll bar.  The roll bar issue is no different to most issues regarding H&S.  It is quite normal to be over zealous at first and then revisit and relax on an issue once more and better data is available.  

If I were an MT member I would be more worried about injuries relating to the head being above the roll bar or not 50mm below the roll bar.  There are pictures of L7C track days showing that this is not being policed. 

Anyway, regardless of views all the best to everyone.  I need to go and make the last of my new light fittings for the garage and do some wrapping. 

[AndrewB]

Post #83 from SForshaw

Andrew, no I'm not on the MT, but I was previously an AR and I've been at meetings where it's been discussed, and my belief is it'll never go back to a standard bar. Also on your second point, the FIA bar is taller than the standard bar.

Stu.

[Shortshift]

Oh goody - but is it really that time already??

James

[AndrewB]

Post #84 from Mucus72

Andrew, there was a fantastic article a few years back in LF about roll bars, with diagrams and reasoning. It really helped me think about where my head was, and that I wanted to be as safe as possible. I am 6’6” and have used both lowered floors and a bag seat to get as low as possible. 

If you look at an FIA bar versus a standard one, and the additional mountibg points, then you’d feel more comfortable on track too I would have thought, irrespective of the TDO used  

I haven’t done a club track day, because I have mates that drive other types of cars and we tend to do our own thing open pit lane wherever, but I don’t think I’d want anything less than the FIA bar anyway. 

My quandary is one step beyond that. I would feel better with a full roll cage, but then that limits my ability to tour and I don’t want to always wear a helmet for road trips. 

[AndrewB]

Post #86 from Steve_K

Andrew, I used to belong in the safety world and I have to agree with Stu and Marcus. The only credible way back from the previous decision is for the MT to hold and accept an authoritative safety assessment which indicates that the two rollbars provide an equivalent level of safety. The relatively small cost difference between the two options (even with the cost of the labour to upgrade) suggest to me that obtaining such an assessment would not be very likely.

I suspect that the two bars aren't too different in the real world until it comes to a really high severity accident when the additional strength of the FIA bar will come into play, but we're talking about the MT meeting its duties under safety legislation and my engineering judgement isn't really relevant.

Steve

[AndrewB]

Post #87 from Simon.Rogers

Aa an ex MT member and Comp Sec as above. Unless the new standard bar was miraculously found to be of a higher standard than the FIA bar there is now way any accountable managing body can backtrack on safety without opening the door for a negligence claim should the worst happen. Stu is correct. Whatever the tests and analysis find, in the real world it aint going to happen.

[AndrewB]

Post #88 from AndrewB

It's not about whether the normal bar is on a par with the half FIA bar.  It is about whether the normal bar is suitable.  BookaTrack and every other professional track day organiser consider it suitable.  Questions that need answering include : Would there be a negligence claim if the data showed the normal bar was suitable and L7C took that (professional) advice? & Could there be a negligence claim if the signed waiver stated that the structural suitability of the roll over bar was the owners responsibility?

As I stated before, having seen pictures of L7C trackdays with heads and helmets above the roll bar (including the half FIA bar) then L7C are more at risk of a claim for not policing that issue.  More importantly, people are more likely to suffer a serious injury because of it.  Interestingly no one seems to comment on this issue !

When I bought the kit I tried the different S3, S5, tillets, leather, lowered floors, non lowered floor combinations, I felt better 'tucked in' in an S5 with leather seats and lowered floors.  My head is a good distance my normal roll bar.   

[AndrewB]

Post #90 by IanB

“ As I stated before, having seen pictures of L7C trackdays with heads and helmets above the roll bar (including the half FIA bar) then L7C are more at risk of a claim for not policing that issue.  More importantly, people are more likely to suffer a serious injury because of it.  Interestingly no one seems to comment on this issue ! ”

Err, I have several times, both when on the MT and not, but as usual was shouted down by the majority of MT members who are sprinters, and who refuse to listen to reasoned argument.
They seem to believe that the regulations that cover competitive motorsport should be applied to recreational track days. 

[AndrewB]

Post #92 by SForshaw

"Would there be a negligence claim if the data showed the normal bar was suitable and L7C took that (professional) advice? & Could there be a negligence claim if the signed waiver stated that the structural suitability of the roll over bar was the owners responsibility?"

Andrew, anyone can make a legal claim for negligence on a whim or emotion, they just need to satisfy a lawyer that they have a case. Whether a claim would be successful is a different matter but it would need to be defended. Re the 2" rule, it is there and it would be easy to police, it purely needs advance notification because in my belief this does effectively become a change over what has been "allowed" to go in the past. With the standard height FIA bar fitted, it would be unusual to not achieve the necessary clearance either by removing the seat swab or reclining the seat a little depending on what you have fitted. 

[AndrewB]

Post #96 by JamesB

Worth adding, as Christine pointed out in her 'Happy Xmas' thread, that one of the more significant undertakings by the Club in 2017 has been the commissioning of a professional review of alternative rollover bar specifications to see if there are grounds for allowing the Club to amend its "trackday bar only" requirement on Club trackdays that has been in place since 1996.  If all goes to plan then we will be publishing the outcome from this review in January - aiming to hit both Lowflying and BlatChat at the same time if we can.

Time now, surely, for this thread to move back towards the original topic.  After all, we're not due our next twice-yearly rollover bar discussion for a little while yet...

James

[AndrewB]

Post #97 by Steve_K

Apols to Derek and Jim, at the risk of taking this thread further away from the name issue and just to clarify; failure of the MT to comply with their legal duties for safety is potentially a criminal matter (policed by the Health and Safety Executive in the event of a serious accident), No 'claim' is necessary for the law to take its course. Furthermore it isn't possible for a personal acceptance of risk to somehow indemnify the MT since this is a criminal matter.

Steve

[AndrewB]

Post #106 by AndrewB

I do find the statement below (and similar) to be too convenient and thrown around far too freely when this topic comes up for discussion.

'If you would like to be part of any criminal or negligence investigation because you lowered the required standards then more fool you!'

A change to the Lotus Clubs track day rules would bring it in line with industry standards.  All you are accepting is that the lotus club were overzealous in their formative years, due to a lack of knowledge of hosting such events, now they are more knowledgeable then they have matched the rest of the industry.  yes/no ??? 

Interestingly no one (bar Ian (excuse the pun)) has chosen to discuss the heads above the roll bars issue?  

 

[AndrewB]

Post #109 by IanB

“ A change to the Lotus Clubs track day rules would bring it in line with industry standards.  All you are accepting is that the lotus club were overzealous in their formative years, due to a lack of knowledge of hosting such events, now they are more knowledgeable then they have matched the rest of the industry.  ”

That has always been my proposition.

<The remainder of the post was not copied as it was not about the roll bar>

[AndrewB]

Post #111 by JNC

Andrew , When I started my thread on Roll-bars whey back when, I felt members including Me weren't getting the most from what the club offers ! My first Seven had a Roll-bar that was only fit for pushing the trolley around the supermarket !! My second car a 2012 vintage has the modern type the tube is a lot larger diameter than the FIA and is as far as I know as tall but not leaning forward , In my opinion the FIA without the petty-strut that leans forward is more lightly to collapse forward onto the driver ? Yes there is strength from side to side with the cross bars but that only works if the bolt that goes from under the car that has had its head cut to half thickness or is it the one from a aluminum green-house ? Doesn't snap off  thus making the extra fixing null and void ! . I can see from the club point they want to cross the T's and dot the I's  But I think they need to move forward look at what other track day providers requirements are ! It seems crazy to me I can take my car to the same track on Saturday and use it but on Sunday if the club are in charge I can't !! . I personally have been criticised by the MT and told the way I have tried to get change was wrong and aggressive and made them less lightly to do anything , Christine has commissioned a proper test on the Roll-bars and hopefully the results will be in LF in January, And I would like to thank her for trying to sort this one way or the other . 

[AndrewB]

Post #122 by AndrewB

John (JNC),

Good to hear that the club have funded some tests.  The devil as always is in the detail and so we can only wait with bated breath as to the outcome.  If you compare a chieften tank and a ford focus in a crash and asked which is best, I suspect the tank would win.  If however you asked if drivers of each type of vehicle would be safe if involved in a crash on public roads, then both would be acceptable.

It is a bit like the ref in rugby asking 'is there any reason I cannot award a try' or 'is it a try, yes or no'.

I'll start another roll bar thread to tidy this one up.

[SLR No.77]

Ha ha, I’d have changed the title of the other thread if you’d asked!

Stu.

[AndrewB]

18 out of 100 or so posts is not quite a takeover but it was getting there  

[Jim 123]

I think Andrew's efforts to bring the various comments on this topic under one new discussion is quite praiseworthy. I am really non-aligned on this subject, but Andrew's work prompted me to seek out and read all of the Trackday Documents on this site. I was surprised on what I have learned.

I was interested to see that the Trackday Documents, including the (quite detailed) Roll Bars and Indemnity Disclaimer are the published property of Seven Club Ltd which is a smaller group of MT participants.

Let's not get back into a debate about the ultimate legal entity, but I believe there is an important distinction to be shared. Our Club has a large Management Team, but only 4 of the MT are legally bound Company Directors of Seven Club Ltd. Our 4 Directors are non-salaried volunteer, but they carry clear liabilities whilst they are listed as active at Companies House.

Any change in Roll Bar policy really must boil down to whether or not all of our 4 volunteer Directors will be comfortable about volunteering to be targets for increased possibility of litigation being directed at themselves. The good old days of Ltd Company Directors being legal escape artists are long gone.

Based on our well published current position on Track Day Roll Bars, I would not take any of the 4 Directors places on the Companies House Register unless any change for Roll Bars on Track Days was backed by clear proof of increasing participant safety.

This is a bit long winded. However, I think we need to be very sensitive to the personal position that we might be demanding our MT to adopt before we resort to beating them up for what they have inherited.

[Ivaan]

I'll be very interested in the test results, but we may have opened a can of worms here.

My car has a tall FIA bar, but no sticker. I've no real idea of it's provenance or even age. Then there's the fixings to consider. Has it been put together correctly? Who's qualified to say? The car's 30 years old.

There are several types of roll over bars used. Do we test them all?

We may find that only full cages are acceptable. After all, they are the only one's tested on track on a fairly regular basis.

Then there's the Club's insurers who must have a view on this? What standards do they require?

What is the basic rational for track days anyway? Does the car have to have an MOT, most race cars don't? There's no scrutineering done ( but they will do a noise check ! ) Could I knock up a car in my garage and take it on track, so long as it has a good exhaust system and it looks okay from a distance?

The issue of head / bar height surly must be the individuals responsibility. It's a simple check and one that could save your life. There's also the issue of belts, clothing, helmets, TYRES ( how often do you see track day tyres worn through to the wire, yet 2 laps ago were probably doing 100 MPH plus ! )

I don't know the answers, only what's acceptable to me, my risk in my car. It's just the others on track I worry about, which is why I prefer L7C trackdays.

Clive

[Wrightpayne]

Sorry to sound like a stuck record, but the 2" below an imaginary line between roll bar and top of engine rule needs to applied strictly. There have been photos in low flying that show it is not applied. In my opinion it should be treated the same as exceeding noise limit i.e. Excluded from the trackday.

Ian

[Ivaan]

Ian, you're quiet right. Check it at home ( essential for road use too ) and expect to get chucked off if non compliant.

[AndrewB]

Jim, it is a very valid point you make about the 4 CH listed directors.  Maybe there is as much to check out legally as there is with the roll bar, head height, seatbelts etc.

Is it an option to do what was done for the 60th track day at Donnington and let BookaTrack do the hard work while the L7C members enjoy the day (bar the torrential rain).