K-Series Starting (Part 235)

[Stuart Penney]

I know this subject has been covered extensively before, and I have searched and read the archives, but I'm never sure if the post I'm reading is applicable to my problem, so here is my situation...

 

Car is a 2000 model Roadsport with push-button ignition.

 

Car started perfectly, driven for about 10 miles, left standing for about 2hrs, upon return I couldn't start it.

 

I pretty certain the battery is OK (it had been on trickle-charge all week)

 

Fuel pump whirs as normal immediately after turning the key.

Upon pushing the start button a whirring noise is the only response. ie the engines does not turn-over.

 

Having read some of the previous posts I've checked, cleaned and re-assembled the three connections on the solenoid but the result is the same.

 

Any advice as to what to do next would be most welcome.

 

PS I am not too handy under the bonnet, so be gentle with me. Thanks.

 

Stuart

V210 NKN

[Chris W]

The whirring noise is probably the starter motor turning, but not fast enough to engage and turn the flywheel.

 

Causes of this could be......

 

1. Battery playing up (most probable cause). How old is the battery? Has it been left discharged for any length of time previously? If so, a trickle charge may not be enough to restore it (although it obviously had enough oomph to start it the first time). Is your charger OK? If you leave a battery discharged for a month, it may not recover so when you say it's been on trickle charge for a week, the implication is that prior to that it had been charged normally... is that a correct assumption. Try a jump start from another battery. If that's OK your battery does not have enough charge - most likely cause kn*ckered battery. Second cause - bad (external) charger or bad charging circuit on the car.

 

Do you have an accurate digital voltmeter (+/-0.5%)? If so (humour me Tony C!!) switch on the headlights for 3 minutes, switch them off, leave the battery for 10 minutes and then measure the open circuit voltage with no charger attached and let me know exactly what it reads (do not measure this with an analogue (needle-type) meter - it's not accurate enough).

 

2. Alternator playing up- It sounds like whatever the first start took out of the battery, the alternator didn't put back within 10 miles. Possibly the charging circuit on the car is faulty - if you've checked the connections, hopefully that eliminates those. Did you check the battery earth connection? Was the ignition light off when running?

 

3. Immobiliser playing up- although if you hear a whirring sound and that sound IS the starter motor turning, it's not going to be the immobiliser preventing a start. Can you get someone to try to start the car while you check it really is the starter motor you can hear.

 

4. Starter motor playing up. If it's turning, then one can assume that the solenoid itself (essentially the "switch" for the starter motor) is most likely OK. But the starter motor itself may have a problem - eliminate the other things first before you remove the starter motor.

 

1.8K SV 140hp see it here

 

Edited by - Chris W on 23 Feb 2003 18:49:26

[Tony C]

Humour - what's that then? 😬

 

Give it a whack with an 'ammer - that'll fix it 😬

 

STILL waiting for my BRG SV kit. 😬

[Stuart Penney]

Chris, thanks for the thorough reply. To answer your questions...

 

1. I've only owned the car for a year, but to best of my knowledge the battery is as old as the car - 3 years. Just before Christmas, the car was left standing for about 10 days and the battery drained enough for the car not to start. After charging, the battery started the car normally and since then I have used a trickle charger pretty much all the time (the car is rarely driven Monday to Friday) with no further problems.

 

The noise I am getting at the moment is different to the noise made when trying to start with a weak battery. I have tried a jump start (though from a battery pack thingy, not another car with the engine running) which made no difference.

 

I don't have a voltmeter so I can't try the test you suggest.

 

 

2. The ignition light was off whilst running. I've only checked the connections on the solenoid, what else should I try? (apologies for my ignorance).

 

3. Immobiliser - I don't think this is the problem. Again, the noise is different to the one when attempting to start the car without disarming the immobilisor.

 

4. I'm pretty sure that the noise I hear is the starter motor turning. I'm not confident enough in my own abilities to start removing the starter motor, but I'll try any other suggestions (connections and such like) anyone may have.

 

Thanks again.

 

Stuart

V210 NKN

[Tony C]

Stuart,

 

I'm being serious now

 

From your description it sounds like the starter motor is not engaging the ring gear on the flywheel and may not be a purely electrical problem.

 

Is it a whirring sound or more like a rising scream?

 

I'm not certain about the modern mechanism used to engage the starter, but it used to engage upon starter motor rotation. I suggest you wait a bit for more detailed advice, but failing that you'd be better-off getting it checked by a reputable garage with the proper test equipment.

 

Good luck and tell us more about the noise.

 

Cheers,

Tony

[Chris W]

Stuart

 

If the battery was left for only 10 days, and that was sufficient time for its being incapable of starting the car, my guess would be that it's time for a requiem mass for said battery. What do you have running when the car is garaged? Immobiliser? Clock? These devices will draw no more than about 100 milliamps total and will be more than compensated for by the trickle charger.

 

It would appear from the posted evidence that the battery is incapable of holding a charge. The real test of this of course would be to substitute a known good battery. Also you don't know the history of the battery - whether it was previously abused by the previous owner. Only about 20% of batteries make it past 48 months.

 

I would say that if it starts with a substitute "proper" battery, your own battery is a gonna. If it still won't start, and you get the same effect, the evidence points to the starter motor.

 

1.8K SV 140hp see it here

[tom7]

I seem to recall that when I built my car, the starter motor drive was too long to connect to the ring gear and was therefore only 'slightly' engaged on the very edge of the starter ring.

To cure this I used small washers to space the starter away from the ring thus gaining full contact all the time.

I have never had any starting trouble.

Might be worth a look.

 

Tom

[charlie_pank]

Just my 2 bits worth - the immobiliser on a K-series doesn't disable the starter at all, only stops the engine from firing. This is why the build guide tells you to turn the engine until you get oil pressure without disabling the immobiliser when you've changed the oil the oil.

 

Charlie'n'Kermit

The plan is: there is no plan

S5EVN

[Buda]

have you checked the ecu fuse?

[ChrisR]

You may not like this but... If the starter is spinning freely, it may well be engaging and turning the engine over if the engine has no compression. Try putting car in gear and hitting the starter (with due caution). If it moves then you know the starter is engaging. I had this problem on my 1.8k earlier this month. If you have no compression on all 4 cylinders, ie all 8 inlet or exhaust valves bent open, then the engine truns over really easily.

[Peter Carmichael]

You can see the front pulley/alternator turning over, so you don't need to risk trying it in gear.

 

There are two types of starter motor. Pre-engaged and throw-out.

 

If it was a preengaged, then it is definitely shagged. The motor only starts spinning once the pinion is in position, driven there by the solenoid.

 

If it is a throw-out type, then the initial rotation of the motor accelerates the pinion to engage the ring gear. Chances are you have this type of starter and the throw-out mechanism has become clogged with filth.

 

Either way, as long as the battery is in good enough health to turn the starter and make the whirring noise, you have to take the starter motor off to investigate. This is a fiddly job (did Angus's at the weekend) and needs fiddly combinations of extension bars to get at the third bolt.

 

 

[Stuart Penney]

Thank you everybody for all of the replies.

 

From the possibilities raised here, I am reasonably confident that the starter motor is the problem and that it is not engaging properly. (ECU fuse is OK, battery has been freshly charged and I did try starting the car with a gear engaged - no change) I'll have to get it checked properly by someone who knows what they're doing.

 

I know that push-starting catalysed cars is not recommended, but other than being collected I don't see that I have any other option ? Anybody know if Caterham would come and collect it (I am local to the factory) ?

 

Thanks again

 

Stuart

V210 NKN

[Tony C]

Stuart,

 

IMHO your doing the right thing to get the experts to check it out if you're not comfortable with poking around with it yourself - brave man Ziiiing - what was that, nearly went in my eye 😬

 

Give Caterham a call if you're local, good idea and lucky you 😬

 

You still haven't given us a better description of the noise than whirring - perhaps a rising banshee wail, afraid the thing is going to jump out of the car?

 

Cheers,

Tony

 

Edited by - Tony C on 24 Feb 2003 22:10:03