Class 2/3 power trorque update post lunch

[Mark Durrant]

As you say in past and I know the car your talking about however, to be fair to the Comp Sec at the time they sold the car and did not return to the championship.

If you want clarification on cams then perhaps you should have submitted a proposal along the lines of Supersport cams or equivalent such as the Piper 633.  

[Alan Bowler]

My 0.02p, as someone who has competed and lost in several class 2 K series variants...

1. Unported 1.6K 633 cams, verniers, Supersport ECU: Slightly slower than some through speed traps, but not by much.
2. As above, ported DVA head: A little faster, but not by as much as I'd hoped.
3. Standard 1.8K Supersport, verniers (thanks Mike). Approx. same speed and times as 2 (which was disappointing, as Mike was much faster with it!). The expected "more torque/less power" wasn't noticeable.
4. 1.8 K, 633 cams, verniers, Z&F ECU. Same as 3. I went a little faster around the corners in 2014, but this was down to confidence and better AD08 tyres.

My conclusion: No noticeable difference in times between 1.8 and ported 1.6, or supersport/633 cams.

As I'll be "resting" for a while, I can reveal the secrets to me getting better times:

1. Driving faster. Simple. Its all in your head.
2. Not turning up at the start line in a grumpy mood, tired, hungover, missing keys, half frozen etc. (turning up at the start line busting for a pee has worked, but not sure I'd recommend it)
3. Having the best tyres available. Not 5 year old worn out "lucky" tyres.
4. Use of a magic hat. Just don't let anyone else wear it.

In class 2 we had 2016 wins (I think) for 1.8Ks, Ported 1.6Ks, Zetecs, Sigmas.
I think that's pretty healthy!
 

[david nelson]

Alan

thanks for your post. It highlight the confusion re cams. My understanding was 1.8 with only supersport cams. When did the 633 cam get allowed?

"I bought a pair of Piper 633 cams as an equivalent to SS cams. Only after I measured a pair of SS cams three or four years ago, did I realise the advantage 633's give (particularly with a ported head). 633's have 10mm of lift and 264° of duration. The SS cams that I've just fitted to my engine have only 9.3mm of lift, and pretty much the same duration as the 633's"

 

david

[Mark Durrant]

David

I suggest you read the regs!

[david nelson]

So cams are free. When did that happen? The original discussion had supersport cams only  as 1.8 as had to remain standard. I guess this got dropped and 1.8's are no longer needing to be standard

 

so this will give me more bhp and torque. Great news

 

[Mark Durrant]

I would not count on any great improvement on what you currently have given the experience of others.

[Alan Bowler]

David, I bought them years ago because they were cheap, Caterham didn't have any Supersport cams for sale,  and was advised they very close to the Supersport profile and would work with the standard ECU. At the time, I was told they were "almost as good". Were there two variants of Supersport cam?

I checked the regs and with the comp sec that they were legal.

More importantly, when did two way adjustable dampers become legal in class 2? 

[Edit: I have no issue with 2 way dampers in class 2. That was an unnecessary rule. And I need all the excuses for not winning I can get]

 

 

[david nelson]

Alan

like you I have no issue but was unaware of the change. Richard and Andrew got good results from 633 cams. As stated no issues just did not know I can use any cams I like.  This includes grinding my own profile . 

Re 2 ways voted in last year 

[Mark Durrant]

David

IIRC the regs have never prohibited the use of 633 cams that is just your recollection/interpretation. This is club motorsport at the lowest level and if your want more regulation equal weights of car and driver deserve more consideration that cam profiles

[david nelson]

Mark

 

more than happy to have the whole championship with the same power to weight ratio including driver. Then no classes would be needed.

[david nelson]

 I would like to thank Chris for the clarification of the lunch yesterday. I was quite surprised to find that the Sigma engines had open ECU's and could use throttle bodies. This allows them to maxamise power. This was definite surprise to me. It does make the discussion with regards to K-series as somewhat silly in terms of the restrictions that allowed. It's obvious that you can produce a super slick engine in class  2/3 engine and current regs and look forward to seeing whether equalisation across the engine class will be allowed.

Also thank Chris for the clarification on what standard supersport means. My understanding the standard 1.8 supersport was,  a standard engine with standard cams. It it would appear that it should just be 1800 K series. I'm sure that is the Reg had lost for words standard super sport  I for one would of understood the rags and read them differently. 

 I look forward to hearing of any changes to the regulations and the beginning of the fettling  season shall begin 

 

 

[Comp Sec]

David,

I've checked the 2016 regulations, and the only references to supersport specification are in relation to the 1400 k series. 

I can confirm that there is no reference to supersport in the K Series 1800cc specifications.

[OliW]

Just to clarify, Sigma's have to be allowed throttle bodies in 2&3 because the 150 Sigma engine comes with them fitted.  The 140 may not, but that spec came after Sigmas were introduced to the championship I believe. 

[david nelson]

Chris Thanks for the conformation re supersport .

Oli: Its the open ECU so the engine can be mapped. This is not allowed for the K series engines. It looks as if there are no restrictions on Sigma engines. you can have any Cam, port the head, run any induction and program your ecu 

 

David  

[OliW]

Yep, noted, but for modest gain and greater cost than with a K, I think.

[Mark Durrant]

I am with Oli there is more to sprinting than top end power and you can be fast in a straight line but unless your car set up is good, so you can brake and maximise your apex speed you will not succeed. The biggest gains to be made are in driver ability and I would spend my money on driver training as this is the area for the biggest gains. There have been plenty of examples where drivers throw the cheque book at the car and then are disappointed that they are not competitive. There are also numerous examples where the car with less power regularly beats the more powerful.

[Dannyboy]

Weight gain David!! Fat = fast...

[Mark Durrant]

Dan

I think I might need to fast to go faster

[david nelson]

I AGREE WITH MARK (OMG)

 

"I am with Oli there is more to sprinting than top end power and you can be fast in a straight line but unless your car set up is good, so you can brake and maximise your apex speed you will not succeed. The biggest gains to be made are in driver ability and I would spend my money on driver training as this is the area for the biggest gains. There have been plenty of examples where drivers throw the cheque book at the car and then are disappointed that they are not competitive. There are also numerous examples where the car with less power regularly beats the more powerful."

 

If you are just starting sprinting do not spend loads of money on engine power at first. Yes we have seen some who have got faster with more power, but its an art and a skill to be fast. 

The discussion is about me, I am getting slower as I get older and would like the extra 13.5 BHP to help me out. Slow reactions, mind wandering off, needed a track map to remember the direction to go. I like the idea of weight reduction but as i get older the weight just pills on.

David 

[Simon.Rogers]

Now there's a T shirt logo to apply to my Player 1 - Player 2

#toofasttorace brand.

Fat is Fast !

I remember some sort of weigh in at the awards once.  I think there would be many of us wearing one of those T shirts!