AdamQ Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 Evening All,I'm nearing the end of a Duratec conversion from a K series and today was first-fire-up day.Unfortunately, I seem to be sparkless. I've wrestled with our seemingly emasculated Blatchat search engine, but to little avail. I've tried jump leads to a (running) second car and have decent voltages.From a previous conversion, I know that there is no way of telling which way round the CPS wires go and I have tried both alternatives.I'm using an Emerald ECU.There's some slightly odd behaviour where the ignition/charging light is concerned. It lights up when the ignition is first switched on, but goes out after about a second. If I disconnect the thick purple engine loom power feed, the ignition light stays on as expected.The feed to the coil pack reads the same voltage as that across the battery terminals with the ignition on and during cranking. The coil pack is new.One thing to add is that the alternator wiring involved a bit of guesswork. It's a Powerlite RAC051 with two wires and a post. The post goes to the positive terminal of the battery. I then have a purple wire and a brown one. The Powerlite website makes no mention of to what these should be connected. I have the brown one going to a live feed and the purple one going to the ECU. I read somewhere on here that you can check which wire goes to the ignition light by seeing which alternator wire is earthed with the ignition off; neither of my wires is earthed with the ignition off.One other thing that might be worth mentioning is that the fuel guage seems pretty lifeless.Thank you for reading this far ... Any assistance gratefully received ...Cheers,Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNC Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 Not stating the obvious but is there a immobiliser . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamQ Posted January 30, 2016 Author Share Posted January 30, 2016 Hi John,Thanks for the reply. There is an immobiliser and it is a concern of mine, but it clicks as you'd expect in response to the blipper. The immobiliser LED doesn't do anything, but I seem to remember some ham-fistedness (mea culpa) mullering that a couple of years ago when I was taking everything apart (it's been a long-term project!) ...I presume bypassing the immobiliser is non-trivial (else it would rather raise the question of their effectiveness) but any tests/checks I can do would be welcome ...Regards,Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamQ Posted January 31, 2016 Author Share Posted January 31, 2016 A bit more information.The alternator is new. The battery voltage when cranking is 9.8-10.1 V.The earths were all cleaned prior to installation and a series of probings with a multimeter suggest that things that should be earthed are. The resistance between the ECU earth pin on the ECU connector and the -ve terminal of the battery is 0.5 ohms.Regarding the fuel gauge, there is a reading of 12.5 V at the connector on the back where the green wires go in. The dash is the 'classic' one - not Stack. The OPG (electric) appears to be working.I might or might not be significant, but I did notice that, with the ECU connector unplugged and the ignition on, the ignition light stays on rather than just lighting up momentarily.Does anybody happen to know which of the several wires that go to the tachometer is the one that goes to the ignition light? Many thanks,Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamQ Posted January 31, 2016 Author Share Posted January 31, 2016 Well, I seem to have almost solved this - I at least have a handle on the problem.The strange ignition light behaviour was solved by switching over the connections on the alternator - they were simply the wrong way round.That didn't solve the lack of spark. In messing about with the Emerald I thought I'd recalibrate the TPS, but the Emerald reported a problem. I grabbed another TPS off a car that had been running this morning perfectly well and got the same problem. That seemed odd.I checked and double-checked the wiring to the ECU and there was the continuity you'd expect. Then I checked the voltages on the connector with the ignition on.TPS supply 5.0 VTPS signal 4.7 V or something - can't rememberTPS earth 5.0 VNow I'm no electrical genius, but I've got a vague notion that earth is supposed to be 0.0 V or thereabouts and so this seemed a bit strange. To cut a long s. short, the TPS, ATS and WTS have a common earth on pin 30 of the Emerald and both the ATS and the WTS seem to be outputting 5 V to earth when they are connected - no idea why this is and I shall look into it.Anyway, with the WTS and the ATS disconnected and the TPS independently earthed, hey presto - a great thumping spark and she's running, after a fashion - struggling a bit to get any sort of tickover. At one point with the throttle closed we seemed to get about 4000 rpm and rising, but I'm sure just a bit of tinkering is required ...Anyway, in the hope that this might help some poor soul at some point in the future, that's the story ...!Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revilla Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 If you've got 5V at the earth side of the sensors, the most likely explanation is just that the connection from that point to earth not properly made; if the earth side of the sensors is not actually connected to earth it will "float" to the 5V supply voltage applied to the other pin of the sensor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamQ Posted January 31, 2016 Author Share Posted January 31, 2016 Thanks Revilla - that's useful information - I shall investigate ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNC Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 Going back to the immobiliser when you turn the key does the fuel pump start ? on mine it wont work until the immobiliser has been turned off thus the ignition is dead = no spark. Not sure why you've got voltage on the earth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamQ Posted February 1, 2016 Author Share Posted February 1, 2016 Hi John,Thanks for the post. Yes, with the ignition on the fuel pump was pumping. Wasn't quite sure precisely what the immobiliser immobilised if you see what I mean so that's useful to know.Regards,Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNC Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 Hello Adam, have you cracked it yet ?, how far have you got Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Jonathan Kay Posted February 5, 2016 Member Share Posted February 5, 2016 The earths were all cleaned prior to installation and a series of probings with a multimeter suggest that things that should be earthed are. The resistance between the ECU earth pin on the ECU connector and the -ve terminal of the battery is 0.5 ohms. Any simple answers to what the maximum resistance should be, Andrew?ThanksJonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revilla Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 0.5 ohms would be a lot for something that should basically just be direct wired connection - for example if it was passing a couple of amps you would be losing 1 volt, however ... multimeter resistance ranges are rarely accurate at very low resistances. On mine, if I short the two probes together I get a reading of 0.3 ohms resistance, so trying to measure 0.5 ohms is rather iffy. This is why in lighting circuits etc. it is much better to measure the voltage drops under load than try to check resistance directly with a multimeter. Can you measure the voltage on the ECU earth pin relative to the battery -ve while it is powered up, possibly while cranking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Jonathan Kay Posted February 5, 2016 Member Share Posted February 5, 2016 Thanks. I thought you'd be able to explain that better than I could.JonathanPS: 0.5 ohm on my cheap everyday Draper. But it had never occurred to me before that it doesn't have a manual adjustment for zero resistance. I think that I'd assumed that was somehow automated nowadays... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamQ Posted February 5, 2016 Author Share Posted February 5, 2016 Thank you all for the ongoing help.John, yes, all sorted now thank you - reversing the wires to the alternator cured the ignition light problem and then independently earthing the TPS resulted in the Emerald not throwing an error when I tried to calibrate the TPS and it gave me the elusive spark that I craved so much ...I'm just fitting rear wings and a couple of other things before letting the car down off the great big scissor jack so that I can fit the silencer (dog (and neighbours probably) not impressed at the initial start-up without it ...!) and then try to get a decent tickover etc. (and see whether or not I've transplanted the K3 map over to the M3D successfully).Regarding the resistance of a direct connection, I also get a reading of anything from 0.2 to 0.6 ohms when I short the two probes together ...Thank you all once again ...Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Jonathan Kay Posted February 5, 2016 Member Share Posted February 5, 2016 Please could you add what turned out to be the correct wiring for the alternator... terminal types, terminal identification and wire colours. It will save some time for someone somewhere...ThanksJonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamQ Posted February 8, 2016 Author Share Posted February 8, 2016 Regarding the alternator wiring, the alternator has a purple wire and a brown/orange one - I assumed that the brown/orange one went to a live feed and the purple to the ignition light; in fact it was the other way round.I submit to the wisdom of Blatchat once again. Having achieved a good steady idle and a generally satisfactory state of affairs all round, I switched to the M3D Emerald to which I had transplanted my K3 map. I also tidied up the wiring with that rubber tape stuff, fitted the silencer and replaced the blown immobiliser LED. I earthed the ATS, WTS and TPS earths to the Emerald AND to a separate earth on the chassis. I am now in the unhappy situation where the car will not start with either the K3 or the M3D Emerald.The fuel pump primes when the ignition is switched on. There are healthy sparks on all four cylinders. There is a strong smell of petrol during cranking and white smoke out of the trumpets on occasions. The cranking voltage is 10.8 - 11.3 V (jump leads to the tin top).The rational explanation is that I've disturbed a connection whilst 'tidying' the wiring. My question is: what might it be that I've disturbed that would still give a spark and fuel but no joy on the actual firing up front? I might add that the engine seems desperate to start but just can't quite bring itself to.Wisdom welcome ...!Cheers,Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Jonathan Kay Posted February 8, 2016 Member Share Posted February 8, 2016 Thanks for the wiring info.Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Jonathan Kay Posted February 8, 2016 Member Share Posted February 8, 2016 It's cranking, you've got sparks and you've got fuel. Did you disconnect the plug leads at any point in that tidying?Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revilla Posted February 8, 2016 Share Posted February 8, 2016 If you've got fuel and sparks and it feels like it wants to go but won't quite, especially if you are getting smoke from the intake side, it suggests an ignition timing problem, i.e. the sparks you do have are happening at the wrong time in the cycle. Echo Jonathan's thoughts above; is there any possibility that the plug leads could be swapped over? Same goes for the low voltage wires to the coil packs (if you have two). If you have a distributor (I'm not very familiar with that setup so this may be a silly suggestion) is there any possibility that the cap is on rotated incorrectly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamQ Posted February 9, 2016 Author Share Posted February 9, 2016 Thank you both for the replies. I agree entirely with the logic of what you're saying. I've double- and triple-checked the plug leads - to be honest, it'd be pretty difficult to get them wrong as you'd always be left with a lead that wouldn't reach a plug. It's a wasted spark system with a main feed and two wires, one for each side of the coil pack. Those wires haven't been switched (I'd remember because they're absolute pig to get out of the connector!) and, as I say, the car has run pretty well with the current configuration.I've unwrapped the wiring that I wrapped up and have re-checked continuities here, there and everywhere. I've also put the Emerald on another car to double-check the settings on that - that car started and ran fine.In taking the plugs out, I happened to notice that what I could see of pistons 1 and 4 was slightly black and sooty, with no. 4 also looking a bit oily. 2 and 3 were bright and shiny. I also happened to notice a patch of oil on the floor below the point where Primary No. 4 enters the collector ... To me this suggests valve stem oil seals, but I've no idea to be honest. I guess a compression test is the next logical step. I've definitely got a spark on all four cylinders so I guess I need to check that not only one pair of injectors is firing - I'm sure I've seen white puffs out of all four trumpets, but I could be wrong.What still puzzles me is that all that has happened since the car was last running nicely (well, reasonably!) (see http://www.blandings.net/images/cat/WP_20160131_16_54_08_Pro.mp4) is that the wiring has been 'tidied': I still have fuel and a spark so why no go? Ho hum - I'm sure it'll be something daft and obvious ...Thanks,Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Jonathan Kay Posted February 19, 2016 Member Share Posted February 19, 2016 Crank sender and associated wiring?Oxygen sensor and associated wiring?Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamQ Posted February 19, 2016 Author Share Posted February 19, 2016 Hi Jonathan,Thanks for the follow up. All is well now - I meant to report, but it's been a busy week. The problem appears to have been fuel washing the bores clean resulting in a complete lack of compression. A compression test gave 210 psi on No. 1 and zero on the other cylinders. A 'wet test' (I think that's the term I saw used) with a few drops of oil squirted down the cylinders gave 210, 75, 45 and 10 psi for 1 to 4 respectively. The penny eventually dropped and the germ of an idea regarding the (inverse) relationship between the compression figures and distance from the oil pump formed ... I cranked the engine over with the coil-pack disconnected and the plugs out for a good long spell to get the oil pressure up (as I'd done before the first start on which occasion the engine started pretty much on the button) and lo and behold she sprang into life and has done on the three or four subsequent occasions I've fired her up.I think the problem was initially caused by repeated attempts to start the engine with a battery that wasn't quite up to the task - lots of cranking and fuel sloshing about and no firing ...The primaries are getting very hot (cherry red) pretty quickly suggesting a lean mixture I think. I'm pretty sure that's a fuel pressure issue: my map is for 3.3 bar but my regulator is set at 3.0 bar. All reasonably easily taken care of in the Emerald via the injection scaling page from what I can see.Thanks again,Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7 wonders of the world Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 Adam,Bore wash is not the culprit - You would not loose all compression.A more likley cause is sticking valves, had it a few times predominately with Supermarket fuel and if the cars been stood for a couple of weeks, it sticks the valaves just off their seats - crank it for a few moments compression builds and hey presto shes away.Glad she's running again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Jonathan Kay Posted February 19, 2016 Member Share Posted February 19, 2016 Out of my league but would it be a good idea to: Inspect the cylinders Check the compression Check and change the oil?Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamQ Posted February 19, 2016 Author Share Posted February 19, 2016 Aaaah, thank you for that - the perils of Google ...! I have to say that I was mystified by the complete absence of compression - and it really was zilch ... I even shoved a cork with a flag down the plug holes to see how high it jumped - equally high on all cylinders ... The fuel that is in there is a 4:1 mixture of fresh fuel from Texaco and some stuff of considerable vintage (12 months or more) so that makes sense.What puzzles me slightly is that the engine was cranked and cranked and cranked with no joy - it did seem to be the combination of the oil down the cylinders and the spinning it up to get the oil pressure up that did the trick - but then the oil probably helped to free the valves ...Regardless, it's going now ...Oil was fresh in - mineral for running in - "Drive it like you stole it from the word go" to quote the immortal Johnty Lyons!! Cylinder inspection is a non-trivial and not inexpensive task so I shall avoid that if i can given that the engine is now going, but I shall do another compression test just out of interest ...Thank you gentlemen for your input - greatly appreciated as always ...Regards,Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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