madmaninshed Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 Please put me out of my misery....the madman is going totally barking mad I purchased a new Powerlite geared starter motor from someone on this site a while back, which was sold to me to fit a duratec engine with standard Caterham flywheel. It was an RAC446 which the Powerlite literature states is for the standard duratec flywheel. It fitted to the Caterham duratec bellhousing and looked fine until 8 months later, when we tried to start the engine, it just went click and didn't engage. We thought it must be a flat (new) battery. It wasn't. Having made numerous enquiries with parts experts and Powerlite (who seemed helpful initially, but came up with no suggestions at all), I found out that the various Ford part numbers that the Powerlite RAC446 is supposed to be compatible with have an 11 tooth pinion. The RAC 446 has a 9 tooth pinion. The original Ford starter motor from my 2.0 duratec engine now fits my duratec Caterham and works fine. If the RAC446 is fully compatible with the Ford parts should it not have an 11 tooth pinion, and should it not fit both the FWD duratec and the Caterham please? Any thoughts much appreciated. Cheers, Paul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birkin S3 ZA. Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 Hi paul, The only difference I have picked up looking for one is there are two types, one for the 2,0 motor and one for the 2,3 transit motor that has a different size flywheel. So the two starter motor's have different gears. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmaninshed Posted February 20, 2013 Author Share Posted February 20, 2013 Thanks Chris. There is a Powerlite model for one of the Raceline compact flywheels too. It beats me that Powerlite cannot give me some dimensions to check. It would seem that either they have wrongly labelled this starter motor, or they have perhaps fitted the wrong pinion? If it was my business, I would want to check it out to ensure correct supply in the future, but despite politeness, there is no cooperation at all. I want to use the starter, but can't....and I have someone wanting to buy it for a standard duratec application.... but their standard motor has an 11 tooth pinion, and I don't want to cause them the same problem I've had....just want to find the answer.....off to the shed for another mad mad moment *mad* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sheldon Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 I have a Powerlines and it is brilliant on my K series. Mine also has 11 tooth pinion and is slightly offset. This is how they design it for more torque. They used to supply Caterham in the past. Email if you want more info or contact details for someone to talk to at Powerlite - I dealt with the MD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmaninshed Posted February 20, 2013 Author Share Posted February 20, 2013 Thanks ssheldon, I was speaking to George and then the MD answered an email, they seemed helpful at first, and did offer to swap the unit for one to match the Raceline flywheel, so that I had something I could at least sell on. It was expensive to do that, and I got nowhere with them on the technical side. I genuinely believe that they have got this product wrong, but the only way I can prove it is to measure a standard duratec motor and this one. Mine is back on the car, and doesn't need disturbing again. Cheers, Paul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmaninshed Posted February 21, 2013 Author Share Posted February 21, 2013 Yesterday we proved beyond doubt that Powerlite are supplying starter motors for the standard duratec flywheel that do not work. The standard duratec flywheel requires an 11 tooth pinion. The RAC446 both in their literature and in the flesh has a 9 tooth pinion of the same diameter as the Ford 11 tooth one. There is no way that their starter motor can work. I informed the Eurolec MD (parent company) and he basically told me to get lost, and refused to answer e-mails. If that was my business, I would be extremely grateful that someone had found a serious problem with one of my products so that it could be withdrawn and rectified before more grief is caused to customers....but not this joker - he couldn't give a stuff!! As mentioned, I purchased this from someone on here, so probably have no comeback, but will contact Trading Standards anyway. Amusingly, he told me to take the matter up with the company who supplied the club member from whom I bought it. I was given the original receipt of sale with the starter motor, and it was Eurolec who supplied it!!!! I have come across one or two companies that should be avoided at all cost, but this one takes the biscuit. Buyers beware!!!! After all this, despite having several people who want it, I am landed with a starter motor I can't sell, because it may not fit anything. Anyone know of a Ford starter motor with 9 tooth pinion please? Perhaps it will fit my lawn mower... Edited by - madmaninshed on 21 Feb 2013 08:11:39 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Jonathan Kay Posted February 21, 2013 Member Share Posted February 21, 2013 Can you post a link to the documents from Powerlite that you think are wrong? Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmaninshed Posted February 21, 2013 Author Share Posted February 21, 2013 Hi Jonathan, Here is part of an e-mail from their technical chap below. I have the sales leaflet saved in "my documents". I can e-mail it to you, but unsure how to put it on here? My sales data for the RAC446 states the following: RAC446: Ford Duratec engine with standard flywheel (Not Mazda). Suitable for a 112tooth ring gear, The unit has a 9T 29mm pinion gear. Direct replacement for original unit. As you will see, he states 9 tooth pinion gear - the duratec uses an 11. we measured both and they are the same diameter - so it can't work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Jonathan Kay Posted February 21, 2013 Member Share Posted February 21, 2013 Thanks. Are there any experts who can say what "Ford Duratec engine with standard flywheel" with no reference to Caterhams means. Aren't there lots of different engines called "Duratec"? Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Jonathan Kay Posted February 21, 2013 Member Share Posted February 21, 2013 Is this the relevant document? Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmaninshed Posted February 21, 2013 Author Share Posted February 21, 2013 Hi Jonathan, That is one of them, but there is another that I can e-mail to you which states all the Ford part numbers that the RAC446 should be a direct replacement for. Please can you let me have your e-mail address and I'll send it over. Cheers, Paul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Jonathan Kay Posted February 21, 2013 Member Share Posted February 21, 2013 Thanks. Here's how it looks to me. 1 The word "standard" is getting in the way of sorting this out. Presumably you can define starters either by which other starter they replace or by the technical specification. There might be some meaning in "Compatible with what is originally supplied by Caterham" but that probably also changes over time as well. 2 "I purchased a new Powerlite geared starter motor from someone on this site a while back, which was sold to me to fit a duratec engine with standard Caterham flywheel." As above on the word "standard" although that is a tighter definition. But the wording you have used is ambiguous. Did he say it would fit or was it your inference that it would from the description. How has your subsequent conversation with that person gone? 3 I don't see anything inconsistent or wrong in the Powerlite literature and it explicitly warns about the many variations. But maybe I've missed the point. Please can you have another look and see what you think is wrong without depending on the word "standard". That would probably need something being wrong with the models it could replace or with the technical spec, see 1. Sorry to be so cold-blooded. Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area Representative Golf Juliet Tango Posted February 21, 2013 Area Representative Share Posted February 21, 2013 In the world of "upgraditus" does anything deserve the word "standard"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmaninshed Posted February 21, 2013 Author Share Posted February 21, 2013 Hi Jonathan, The person who sold it to me on this site (I'm sure in good faith) e-mailed me before I bought it confirming that it would fit my Caterham providing I was using the Caterham flywheel and not a Raceline one - he had got the RAC446 in error and should have bought the one to match his Raceline flywheel. He decided to sell on the RAC446 as he said that Powerlite were "a nightmare to deal with." it bolted straight on to our duratec engine, but it was 8 months later when the car was finally rebuilt and we tried it. I e-mailed him when we found the problem. He said to put it on e-bay and sell it, but I can't because it could cause so much grief for someone. If you check out the Ford part numbers the RAC446 replaces, they have 11 teeth. We measured the pinion diameter of one, and it is the same diameter as the 9 tooth one on the RAC446, so the RAC446 with 9 teeth cannot be right. This is why it wouldn't engage on our car. The Ford part with 11 teeth does work on both the original duratec (FWD) and the Caterham. I hope that makes sense. Whatever "standard" means, the part numbers that the Powerlite literature state it is compatible with are wrong, and they can't be arsed to investigate. Thanks for your suggestions - much appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Jonathan Kay Posted February 21, 2013 Member Share Posted February 21, 2013 Quoting madmaninshed: The person who sold it to me on this site (I'm sure in good faith) e-mailed me before I bought it confirming that it would fit my Caterham providing I was using the Caterham flywheelBut it doesn't, from what you are saying. So you and he should rectify the situation by you returning the starter and him returning the money. Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMMO Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 What's wrong with the standard starter motor? That's all I've ever used on my engines that are fitted with a standard size flywheel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmaninshed Posted February 21, 2013 Author Share Posted February 21, 2013 There is nothing at all wrong with the standard starter motor, which I will continue to use. I bought the Powerlite one as I am using a lightweight race battery, and thought that it would draw less current. I am trying to spec my car as highly as I can afford. The Powerlite starter looks heavier than the original rather than the weight saving Powerlite claim... I did ask the person who sold it to me to return my money. As I did not have the packaging any longer, and as 8 months had passed, he refused, but offered to split any loss I made by selling it on ebay. Sadly I can't do that as it won't fit the engine it is supposed to, and although a well known club member, has won't answer my e-mails, which is disappointing to say the least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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