jamesm Posted July 30, 2002 Share Posted July 30, 2002 1.6 K series SS starting to make slightly worrying rattling noises, on and off, when warm and cold, but usually starts after a bit of a blast. reliably informed by caterham that its a head off job. can someone give a brief procedure for removal of the head cheers James M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Sewell Posted July 30, 2002 Share Posted July 30, 2002 From my little knowledge of that engine - you don't want to go there! Between the hed bolts going the full length of the block into the sump and the use of cylinder liners that can move as soon as you remove the head.... But I am just a coward in that area as it is far to expensive to call on someone else when the car is already in pieces. Low tech luddite - xflow and proud! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooby dooby doo Posted July 30, 2002 Share Posted July 30, 2002 reliably informed? it sounds like it may be a tappet or even sometyhing unrelated. Have thay actually seen / heard the problem? if its a tappet the head can stay on and just the cams and cam cover come off/out. see the tappets thread we've been having the last few days for more info. if its a head off job its not too bad but you need a few specialist tools to undo the torx headed bolts, lock the cams and tension the cambelt properly. you'll also need a new head gasket. and then do whatever is necessary to fix the problem. The Haynes Rover 214 manual explains it reasonably well.. HOOPY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Woods Posted July 30, 2002 Share Posted July 30, 2002 Sounds similar to mine - if you do get the head off let me know what you find. Have read of this here first though Nick P8MRA - The green one with red wings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjwb Posted July 30, 2002 Share Posted July 30, 2002 James, If you provide a fax number I will send the appropriate pages from the Rover manual. Steve B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnty Lyons Posted July 30, 2002 Share Posted July 30, 2002 We buns set engine up at 90 deg before TDC,remove plug cover, and distributor cap and leads,remove 4 plugs, lift cam cover and gasket, drain all fluids, pull thermostat housing out from back of water pump to fully evac head. remove club foot, and connected hoses,unbolt exhaust manifold. Unbolt induction as an assembly dosen't matter what type.Remove cambelt cover plate 6 by 8mm bolts and loosen bottom 10 mm,mark scribe line on cam wheels across centre from left to right. loosen tensioner 8mm and allen screw in centre of wheel remove belt.remove cam wheels 17mm socket. and two 8mm bolts behind. Using correct Torx skt and correct sequence loosen all 10 long bolts a bit at a time pull and insert in marked bit of cardboard as they should go back in same holes, give head a crack with plastic mallett either side and lift away. bobs yer uncle.I've done this so many times now like so many others I do it in my sleep. WARNING DO NOT attempt to turn engine over with head off. You'll break the liner seal and then its a complete strip down. jj N.I. L7C AO. Membership No.3927. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamesm Posted July 30, 2002 Author Share Posted July 30, 2002 as simple as that! fax number is 01268 406727 may well investigate tappets before going for the full monty head removal! once i have got the tappets out should i fit solid ones as per dave andrews? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnty Lyons Posted July 30, 2002 Share Posted July 30, 2002 Only if your revving the socks of it not on a std motor. I,m on 740s old hat now a days and 8500 rev limit so i'm on solids. jj N.I. L7C AO. Membership No.3927. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooby dooby doo Posted July 30, 2002 Share Posted July 30, 2002 removing the exhaust manifold can be a sod though. Depending on type the manifold may come off easily or there won't be room. In which case you either need shortened exhaust manifold studs or you have to extract the stud. JJ himself taught me how to do this - you put two nuts on the stud, tighten them against each other and then just undo the back one. IT will stay tight against the fron ones and the stud will undo. Then the manifold comes out easily. I left the induction on as well as I couldn't be ar5ed to remove it. Solid tappets are only needed if you are driving them really hard ie agressive cam profiles and/or high revs. so 740 cams in the hydraulic (ie gentler) profile are ok on standards to about 8000 just about (Miraz has this at the moment). But the supersport race cars used solid tappets with only SS cams for reliabilty. with non-hydraulic profile 740s i suspect things would go wrong very quickly... While we're here. the cam can be described by the duration that the valves are open. SS cams are about 270 degress, 740s are about 285 and 1227s are 295. I guess the std cams are 250-260 ish? The more agressive cams also open the valve FASTER and FURTHER - this is what the hydraulic tappets don't like. HOOPY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamesm Posted July 30, 2002 Author Share Posted July 30, 2002 car has only done 14k but i suspect i have caused the problem by running sticky tyres at track days without drysump/anti-cav. may have to invest after repairs have been undertaken. once i have the relevant parts out i suspect i will have some parts made up to go to solids just so it won't happen again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamesm Posted July 30, 2002 Author Share Posted July 30, 2002 car has only done 14k but i suspect i have caused the problem by running sticky tyres at track days without drysump/anti-cav. may have to invest after repairs have been undertaken. once i have the relevant parts out i suspect i will have some parts made up to go to solids just so it won't happen again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted July 30, 2002 Share Posted July 30, 2002 Hoopy, Your cam durations are very misleading. The duration is measured between two points of nominal lift - 5 thou is typical (I think it is the standard in fact, but you need to confirm with every manufacturer - 5thou and 20 thou ring bells), because follower clearance determines when the actual first movement takes place. On this basis a 1227 cam is 280 degrees. Piper market their cams as BP285 etc. because of marketing issues. The duration is a lot less than 285 degrees. *thumbup*253 bhp, up and running Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjwb Posted July 31, 2002 Share Posted July 31, 2002 James, Check your fax. Steve B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robster Posted July 31, 2002 Share Posted July 31, 2002 Having rebuilt several Xflows and A series engines over the last few years, I am interested in this as my next Caterham will have a DIY VHPD engine! When you put the 'sandwich' back together, how do you seal all of the layers? Do the through bolts go into the bearing caps? If so, how do you know that the cap is pulled into the right shape? What actually seals the liners and how big a job is it for an amateur to re seal them? (I'm thinking forged pistons going into the liners). Can't wait to get one in bits, I am so impressed by the results of everyones DIY VHPDs that the Xflow car is going up for sale shortly! Robster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooby dooby doo Posted July 31, 2002 Share Posted July 31, 2002 Hi Peter, I meant to put something like "this may well be codswallop, I'll wait for somebody to correct me" on the end but forgot ❗. The point I was trying to make was that warmer cams pust the valve up faster and push it further. I then spouted some stuff I had a vague idea about and picked up from others with seemingly similarly vague ideas... Is there a source of like for like comparisons of the various cams in common usage anywhere? eg plots of lift against angle or something similar? I presume such a site would need to be independent judging from your snipe at Pipers marketing team Also am i right in thinking that 1227 and 740 are pretty much irrelevant numbers that are just internal Piper part numbers or similar? HOOPY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooby dooby doo Posted July 31, 2002 Share Posted July 31, 2002 Robster - I think V7 SLR may still have a scrap 1.4K that he bought to have a play with / look at and never got round to it. Last I heard he was offering about gratis to anybody who would collect. Could be a good way for you to see where everything goes... HOOPY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oilyhands Posted July 31, 2002 Share Posted July 31, 2002 For the record SS cams are 264 degrees 740s BP285M) are 276 degrees BP285H cams are 274 degrees 1227 (BP300) cams are 280 degrees Robster, the bottom bearing ladder is sealed to the block using the same sealant gloop as the cam ladder, the bottom engine plate into which the through bolts screw also uses this gloop. The head / block uses a fairly conventional gasket. The liners are 'damp' in that they exhibit characteristics of both wet and dry liners, the top of the liner runs in the waterjacket with the bottom being a loose push-fit into the block, a machined step in the liner sits on a small ledge in the block to retain the liner at the correct height, this is sealed with hylomar or similar. The liners are then clamped into position by the head, this is why it is so important to get the liner heights right so that the clamping pressure is correct and even. There are no main bearing caps as such, these are incorporated into the main bearing ladder, when the through bolts are removed the main bearing housing will go out of round which is why it is not a good idea to turn the crank too much once the head is off, the liners can be retained using liner clamps made from some copper heating pipe and large penny washers although they will not come adrift on their own. There is nothing particularly difficult about removing and refitting the head, the cam timing is probably the are where there is the biggest opportunity for error, follow the instructions in the Haynes manual and all will be well. I have a friend who has the full K series workshop manual on CD together with other useful information, he may be persuaded to make a copy. Oily Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooby dooby doo Posted July 31, 2002 Share Posted July 31, 2002 SS cams are 264 degrees 740s BP285M) are 276 degrees BP285H cams are 274 degrees 1227 (BP300) cams are 280 degrees aha! knowledge! cheers oilyhands! yikes - 1227s are only a small increase over 740s then (in duration terms at least). Where does all the extra power come from then? do have more lift and therefore will let more air/fuel flow in (if the rest of the head/induction is upto it) or is there something else or is it all deeply non-linear and i should go away and keep quiet? And what are the std cams? HOOPY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oilyhands Posted July 31, 2002 Share Posted July 31, 2002 1227s have just enough extra duration and lift to allow the torque to sustain itself further up the rev band, hence the relatively large power hike (at 8500 4lb/ft of torque is 6.5BHP). Some of this top-end torque is bought at the cost of lower speed losses. If you examine the toirque curves between a 740 equipped engine and an indentically specced engine with 1227 cams then you can see where the difference lies. The extra duration is effectively added to the overlap period which squeezes the torque further up the rev band. 740s run with 120/100 lift at TDC, 1227s with around 140/110. The stock cams are 244 degrees.. Oily Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooby dooby doo Posted July 31, 2002 Share Posted July 31, 2002 right. i'm not going to say i understand it all (about 20 years of experience required for that i reckon) but it does all seem to make sense now . cheers! I should probably ask for Dave Walkers book for Christmas shouldn't I? HOOPY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnty Lyons Posted July 31, 2002 Share Posted July 31, 2002 Dismembering a K to all it's component parts is a little different from a x-flow or a VX. someone asked about the long bolts they go right through thr head/block/ bearing ladder and screw into the oil plate. it is the clamping force between the head and the oil plate that holds the whole thing to gether. The biggest learning curve is that there are no main bearing caps as such just one asy that carries all 5 main bearings it is line bored for accuracy with the block and the two bits are only changable as one. the liners sit in the block assy by gravity when the head is off so don't turn the engine upside down in your engine stand they will fall out, it's the head that holds them in. they are sealed at the liner/block interface with a bead of hylomar or comma blue. The other non gasket interfaces are sealed with a sealing paste sold by all Rover dealers see notes above. K's are different but once your used to them they are a damn fine piece of engineering PCs is a different beast but here is not the forum to go into his extensive/expensive mods Eh Pete? jj N.I. L7C AO. Membership No.3927. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnty Lyons Posted July 31, 2002 Share Posted July 31, 2002 Sorry Dave hadn't read both pages didn't mean to stand on your learned toes jj N.I. L7C AO. Membership No.3927. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooby dooby doo Posted July 31, 2002 Share Posted July 31, 2002 the cocept of a learned toe ❗ *smile* HOOPY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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