DTA ECU programming

[TomGaval]

DTA users, I have a Rover K 1.8 that QED built speced to 190+ hp. I tried to start it for the first time today. It cranks but does not start. The DTA unit is a model # E 48. I ran it thru a laptop, and all the setting are at 0.0. DTA's web site didn't have a Rover sample listed. Can anyone suggest base line mapping guidelines? Tom

 

[oilyhands]

I have plenty of maps for engines at this level, but they are all for the Emerald M3DK system, the ignition cointour will be right, but the fual map is always referenced against injector size, fuel pressure and the milliseconds per bit (or fuel number) used to translate the map number to injector duration so fuel maps will be useless other than as a general indication of shape, I.E. torque peaks/fuel peaks.

 

If you want to construct an ignition map start at 15 degrees at idle, ramp up to 26 degrees at 4000 and interpolate between, propagate this over all the load sites, that will get the engine running WRT to ignition, apply some extra advance to the lower load sites later. For base fuelling start with a low number like '30' across all load sites at the idle speed site, put some cold start (coolant temperature) correction in for the fuel map and some cranking corrections, then crank and see if it fires. Dial the fuel up or down to suit until it catches, replicate the fuelling figure in the next speed site once it's warm.

 

FWIW the coolant and cranking percentage correction on most K maps is as follows

 

temp injection cranking

-10 60 110

0 55 100

10 35 70

20 15 55

30 11 35

40 8 30

50 5 25

60 2 20

70 0 15

80+ 0 15

 

If you'd like an equivalent M3D map (its ASCII) let me know

 

Oily

[TomGaval]

Oily, a copy of the map would be appreciated. Email address is tgaval@home.com Thanks Tom

 

[Mike C]

I also made the fatal mistake of buying something from QED!! Yep been there, they're DTA emu's are not configured properly and when I approached them for a satisfactory explanation, they provided no help what so ever! I have since been told that QED do not store the engine mapping data in a way in which they can recall the information and load it on to the EMU for a particular engine tune or specification.

 

I ended up having to take the engine out and set it up on a Dyno. Not the QED one I hasten to add!!!

 

Good luck, the DTA system does work well when set up though.

 

Mike C

[TomGaval]

Mike, Looks like I'm stuck in a loop. DTA suggested going back to DTA for the map. Anyone else have a DTA map for the 190+bhp Rover? Email me at tgaval@home.com. Thanks Tom

[EFA]

I'll back Mike up here as I helped him try to figure things out.

 

He was sold an engine upgrade kit whith an "out of the box this will run and be fine" map.

 

His engine would not even fire up, and the support he got from QED was of a nature such that it was never going to make his engine run properly. (read guesswork changes to the map)

 

I understand Phil Price at Connaught did a good job.

 

Additionally, upon dismantling the engine Mike, did you not find the pistons supplied gave you a 12.8:1 compression ratio??? A little excessive for a 235hp engine..... How much did this have to do with things???

 

 

 

Fat Arn

See another FAT ARNIE here

See a meaty Vauxhall car here

See the Le Mans Trip Website here

See the Lotus Seven Club North Kent Website here

 

[TomGaval]

Arnie, I was told the same, surprise, my 196hp came in at 12:4:1 compression. I was expecting 11:5. When I spoke to Allan at DTA. He was of no help and referred me back to QED.

 

Question. Can a map be supplied electronically, so that I don't have to ship the car/engine back to England. Here in the US there aren't many familiar with the Rover K or DTA. Or could a competent mechanic with a dyno set it up?

 

Car looks good. Will it ever run? Tom

[Paul Ranson]

I'm very surprised QED cannot supply a map. There's no real reason why DTA would have a suitable one.

 

The big divergence between different installations on most engines is crank position sensor alignment, this shouldn't apply to a K Series with a standard flywheel and using a standard crank sensor mount.

 

So anybody with a DTA installation on a K should be able to email you a map that should at least start the engine. The only one I can think of immediately is Tony Martyr. His email address may be on the forum.

 

This map would obviously only be enough to get you started..... Any one-off engine needs one off mapping, and even a QED kit probably qualifies as 'one off' if you want the best from it.

 

Paul

[murph7355]

You guys with the high compression - are you using Accralite pistons (if supplied by QED I think you might be).

 

That explains your HC.

 

If you use Omegas I believe the figures are nearer the more sensible 11-11.5.

 

I know this because I had to have some Accralite's skimmed, and a flowed head revisited to take more meat out to get my compression ratio to sensible levels (it's now at 11.1). All, of course, at great expense.

 

If you're still in a position to (which I doubt) I'd ask QED to get you some replacement Omegas to swap for the others. Otherwise you could find yourselves chasing a lower CR with mixed results. They must know these pistons give this sort of result by now and who on earth wants that level of CR with fuel quality like it is these days...

[TomGaval]

Thanks, Guys, I'll give Tony's map a try. As for fuel costs your're right. QED recommended minimum 97 octane. I bought 7 gallons of 100 octane race fuel for $30 US!!! Regular 94 Octane is only $1.75 a gallon. Tom

[EFA]

The pistons in Mikes case were Omega slippers.

 

The crank sensor is static 113 deg ATDC on the VX as the pickup transducer is driven by a 60-2 wheel on the crank. You can cal this with a strobe and any ecu which lets you calibrate the position if unsure.

 

 

 

 

 

Fat Arn

See another FAT ARNIE here

See a meaty Vauxhall car here

See the Le Mans Trip Website here

See the Lotus Seven Club North Kent Website here

 

[Mike C]

 

Yep, I used Omega pistons, specified at 11.1:1 compression ratio by QED. Having assembled the engine, at great expense and time, I found that in no way would it run. I had purchased a 450 kit from QED on the understanding that it was a "Turn key" solution and that all components were optimised, including the engine mapping.

 

Unfortunately, NOTHING supplied by QED was of the right specification and I had to threat legal action before they refunded my money. In fact the pistons were 12.8:1 compression, the regulator was faulty, fuel rail faulty, Air flow sensor faulty and vernier pulley not of the right specification.

 

The map supplied with the kit was devoid of any related values for my particular application and in the entire process of trying to resolve this unpallitable situation, I can only describe QED as the least customer focused business I have ever had the misfortune to deal with!

I would NEVER spend any money with this company again and would not trust any technical advice given by them. In Ken Snailhams own words " Our salesmen are not qualified to provide technical advice"

Enough said! You have been warned!

This is my own personal opinion based soley on my experience only and should not be construed as anything else.

[Brad Tipp]

Mike, sorry to prolong the agony, but quite what did QED charge for all this?

 

I'm only interested as I had my upgrade done by Arrowstar, and whilst is was expensive the quality of the work can't be faulted.

I did look at QED and it didn't seem a lot cheaper, especially considering I would have to do the assembly myself.

 

T 1 PPB - Superlight

 

"Well yes officer i'm not arguing, it's just that [insert excuse here]..."

[Mike C]

Hi Brad,

 

I did all the assembly myself, so I ended up just buying the components from QED. It was about £2800 I think Including DTA, Pistons, cams and Throttle bodies.

I didn't consider this expensive at the time of purchase, only when I found out that none of it worked together!

 

Good luck!

[TomGaval]

Mike, Now that you've really made me feel good. Can you email me a copy of the map or equivilent spreadsheet. I would like to compare it to the one that is currently programmed into my ECU. Comparing mine to what Tony Martyr sent me, I see significant differences. Best two out of three? email address tgaval@home.com Just to add that my original dealings with QED were ok. However I agree with the lack of customer focus!! Tom

[The Pied Piper]

fello dta users....

 

In my experience, an engine will start and run with most maps, I found that the intial non starting problems were caused by nothing like enough enrichment on cranking (works like pumping the throttle on webbers, or in lieu of a choke), also not enough enrichment on warm up, ie you need loads of enrichment until the engine starts to get warm (mapped against engine temp)

 

The main thing is that its essential to get the basic settings correct ie position of crank sensor, numer of teesth on disc, number missing etc. Note that there are several different types of rover flywheels which are all different in this respect, ie VVC flywheel is different to non VVC type.

 

Im surprised that QED can't supply the correct info, I've had a couple of maps sent to me (FOC) by QED for the 20XE engine and both have been OK for starting up etc. although they are definately biased on the safe side.

 

Anyway if anyone wants a copy of the map in my rally car engine (235BHP spec, DTA, Jenvey injection, QED450 cams) I'll gladly supply it.

 

Also, I can make up custom DTA looms for anyone struggling with this. I have installed several DTA units so I've learnt a bit about them and the mapping of them. I can also make up a "control unit" for easier realtime mapping, if required.

 

Regards,

 

Martin

 

 

[Tony Martyr]

Tom,

I may have sent this mail direct but my MSN account is all fouled up so I am getting no mails in or out at present.

 

I assume you had the vehicle loom plug supplied with your ecu and that you

have connected the pin 5 to the correct signal connection of the fuel pump

relay?

I think the ecu should maintain a 12v <500mA signal to hold that relay in. If the

ecu opens that connection the pump will stop. Have you checked what happens

to that connection?

Alternatively you could first check the power line to the pump with a

multi-meter to check what happens when you switch on but it must be the ecu

to relay signal that is being broken if it starts then stops.

I would be tempted to put a fused and switched feed onto that relay while you try to find if the fault is deep in the ecu.

There is a menu option 4 on the dta software which is 'test power circuits'

I have never used it but the experts on this forum should help with that.

Tony