Beej Posted June 23, 2003 Share Posted June 23, 2003 Excuse my ignorance. The clutch slave cylinder appears to have gone on my Vauxhall XE (ex)racer. Its inside the bellhousing where I can't see a thing. Can someone tell me if this is a standard part that I can get from a factors? If so, who makes it and what does it originate from? Excuse me if these are really dumb questions but I didn't build the thing and despite 3 hours effort yesterday the engine isn't out yet! (it always takes longer the first time!!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxy Smith Posted June 23, 2003 Share Posted June 23, 2003 Its a Caterham only part, so get direct from Caterham or Redline. If your car is pre (I think) '96 replace the whole unit i.e. not just the seals, costs about £60. Good oportunity to give the bellhousing tank a good clean out!! and have a look at the clutch while your at it. You also need a decent set of circlip pliers as there are two meaty circlips to wrestle with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beej Posted June 23, 2003 Author Share Posted June 23, 2003 thanks Foxy - I just knew it was going to be a b*****d job! Shame too, I was having a lot of fun embarrassing TVRs at the time. Any ideas if the clutch can be converted to cable? Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxy Smith Posted June 23, 2003 Share Posted June 23, 2003 IMHO the hydraulic clutch is superior to cable for many reasons it's just a pi**er when the slave seals go. The word is the new seals/piston assembly is much superior to the original and less likely to be a problem. My car was 11 years old when the slave gave up it was just unfortunate we were hundreds of miles from home in the South of France when it happened. If you are local'ish and want a hand let me know, I'm in Ardingly in West Sussex. 01444 892555 Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beej Posted June 24, 2003 Author Share Posted June 24, 2003 Thanks for your offer Alan. I have managed to get the engine out (it took another hour and a half -I had no idea it was such a tight fit), now where the hell is that slave cylinder? I presume I have to attack the four large bolts inside the bell housing? help? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxy Smith Posted June 24, 2003 Share Posted June 24, 2003 Undo the 4 19mm head bolts, and tap off the bell housing with a rubber mallet. At this point all the hydraulic fluid pi**es all over the floor. With the bell housing up on a bench release the larger circlip and use a big socket and extension bar and gently drift out the whole thing. Fitting is the reverse as Mr Haynes says. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beej Posted June 25, 2003 Author Share Posted June 25, 2003 Excellent - slave cylinder is out and on the bench awaiting its replacement. I'll give the whole area a clean up while I am at it. It was quite late last night (11.00pm) and I wasn't really looking properly but it suddenly occurred to me that there was no obvious bleed nipple.. is it that fairly large thing sticking out the top/side of the bellhousing? It looks too big? I also didn't realise that there is a paper gasket between the bellhousing and gearbox - how critical is that, I haven't ordered a replacement and I can't see any purpose for it - there is no fluid to seal between the two components? There is a lot of nasty looking metal swarf lying around the back of the block and the clutch cover plate has a nice patina of shiny dents all over it.. I imagine the clutch release bearing let go some time recently and whoever replaced it didn't clean out the crap. (Gary, if you are reading this, can you shed any light on this?). I am slightly concerned about the state of the clutch if there is that much metal flying about but I don't really want to disturb a clutch that is a) in the right place and b) only has 5000 miles on it. I haven't had any problems with it at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxy Smith Posted June 25, 2003 Share Posted June 25, 2003 Beej, The bleed nipple is tapped into the bellhousing casting on the nearside (passenger side) symmetrical to the tapping for the connection for the pipe to the clutch master cylinder. Don't like the sound of all that swarf in there, can't see why even the roughest of workmen would'nt clear that out. For peace of mind I am sure I would take the cover plate off just to eyeball the fly wheel. Any doubts replace the lot. Balance the cost of a new friction plate and cover plate (less than £100??) against your time and effort getting the engine out to say nothing of getting it back in, a pleasure yet to come!! Before you take the cover plate off check for allignment marks or dot puch your own cos sure as sure it will have been balanced. For clutch plate allignment on reassembly appropriate socket on short extension bar with masking tape to shim up as necessary works well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxy Smith Posted June 25, 2003 Share Posted June 25, 2003 Also meant to say, don't know how critical that gasket is but easy enough to knock one up from gasket paper using back of the bell housing as a patteren and a ball pein hammer to tap it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ECR Posted June 25, 2003 Share Posted June 25, 2003 The gasket seals around the hole where the gear selector rod pokes through. use a smear of silicone in this area and the old gasket. If you do not seal this joint you will transfer gearbox oil in small quantities into the bellhousing every time you change gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beej Posted June 26, 2003 Author Share Posted June 26, 2003 thanks for all your advice.. The gear selector rod seal makes perfect sense. There is nothing left of the old gasket so i guess its time to break out the hylomar. I have taken the brave, or foolish, decision to try and bung everything back in the car and get it back on the road ASAP. This is because if the clutch is going to go I want to upgrade it, so i would rather make sure that it has well and truly gone, if you see what I mean. The car is really for track use and evening/weekend blats. However, if, or when, the time comes to change the clutch (the flywheel will get a skimming at the same time) which clutch should I fit? Just to remind you, this is a 190bhp Vx racer on carbs which I fully intend uprating to DTHTBs with engine management and maybe a head/cam/piston change to get up to 230ish bhp. I don't even know what clutch is in there at the moment but it doesn't say AP racing on it! Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I reply to every thread Posted June 26, 2003 Share Posted June 26, 2003 Opinions vary on what to use. Phil Stewart of R&R Transmissions uses a standard plate with an uprated cover & has no problems. The plates seem to last well. I use a AP sprung paddle & uprated cover on FA's advice because he's known of uprated VX's - ie over 170ish bhp ripping up standard plates & covers. I like the idea of the longevity of a standard plate & am tempted to try it. However I do not like the idea of taking the engine out after 500 miles if it rips the arse out of a new plate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I reply to every thread Posted June 26, 2003 Share Posted June 26, 2003 PS - I'm on a standard engine with TB's & MBE. With 230bhp I'd certainly think that you'll need a paddle plate & uprated cover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ECR Posted June 26, 2003 Share Posted June 26, 2003 I run the following which I find is a reaonable compromise between road and competition: Pressure Plate LUK 123 012010 Friction plate fitted August 1999 is an AP Racing product (NB new part number is CP6444-5) CP3431-2 DP228RIGCER-1 00X23-7,37 DP = Driven Plate 228 mm diameter RIdgid CERamettalic 1.00mm x 23 tooth spline 7.37mm thick This is on a 250bhp VX. I have had cause to replace the pressure plate once but that was after a fairly major blow up of the release bearing which I believe contributed in a large way. This is not the "ultimate" clutch set up but has performed well for me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I reply to every thread Posted June 26, 2003 Share Posted June 26, 2003 Is that a Paddle plate Roger? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ECR Posted June 26, 2003 Share Posted June 26, 2003 Yes, unsprung. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beej Posted June 26, 2003 Author Share Posted June 26, 2003 Thanks everyone - just so I'm clear.. that is the "competition" version of the standard Vauxhall cover plate made by LUK but with an AP paddle driven plate (because the standard one has a habit of shredding itself?). Is that right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFA Posted June 27, 2003 Share Posted June 27, 2003 For info, the AP sprung type paddles are susceptable to ripping the centre out of the plate! The unsprung have the load spread over a wider area an the hub is a rivetted type. Guess I'm trying to say don't use a sprung type! The cover is best got from Helix Autosport (search the web to find them). They do an uprated std cover (bigger drive straps) which addresses the problem you will get with 230bhp going through it. Fat Arn Visit the K2 RUM website See the Lotus Seven Club 4 Counties Area Website here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Phillips Posted June 27, 2003 Share Posted June 27, 2003 Just got our engine out today to find out what has happened on the hydraulic clutch. Seems the bearing has decided to wear badly, causing alloy to shave off the fitting and mix with the grease back into the master cylinder . Is it really worth staying with a hydraulic clutch? My cable operated one on the last Cosworth engine never gave me trouble and this is the 2nd time this season I've had to pull the engine out. First time was a split in the pipe flange going into the unit. Racing pics and items for sale here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beej Posted June 30, 2003 Author Share Posted June 30, 2003 Oh bullocks. The engine went back in saturday afternoon, only to find the new slave cylinder hasn't fixed the problem. Still only got half a clutch - reverse and fourth being the toughest to select, the others are achievable with a firm hand. But here's the weird thing. When it went (which happened just as a tried to slot fourth at Abbotts thus resulting a hairy sideways box full of neutral coming into Quarry!) I found that the fluid in the master cylinder was really low and there was a lot of damp around the bottom of the gearbox front end. The guys who built the car (Taylors Foundry) happened to be there and instantly diagnosed the slave cylinder. It all made perfect sense. I still had reasonable peddle pressure. But it hasn't solved the problem. The only other pointers are; that I have good peddle pressure (so not master cylinder?), the fluid was really cloudy (age?) and I can still get a bit of clutch (?) - even though the clutch plate looked fine. it must be the cover/driven plate musn't it? looks like a might need that upgrade sooner than expected. where do i get an unsprung AP paddle clutch from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I reply to every thread Posted June 30, 2003 Share Posted June 30, 2003 This sounds like actuation to me rather than a faulty plate or cover. Did you check the springs etc while it was out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beej Posted June 30, 2003 Author Share Posted June 30, 2003 err, no. Ok I know I was a complete idiot not to take the clutch apart whilst I had the engine out but it never occurred to me that the slave cylinder wouldn't fix the problem. There was nothing obviously awry from a visual check of the cover plate as bolted up to the flywheel. I feel a complete fool. So, its engine out again huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxy Smith Posted June 30, 2003 Share Posted June 30, 2003 You're not the first person who has had to take an engine out five minutes after putting it in. Its all part of the learning process. Bad luck nontheless. Are you happy it is bled properly? Also watch out for master cylinder doing funnies especially if the fluid is in a grotty condition, there is a ball valve at the bottom of the fluid reservoir that can get jammed open if there is grot in the fluid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beej Posted July 1, 2003 Author Share Posted July 1, 2003 Alan, how can I test the master cylinder? I seem to have plenty of peddle pressure and I assumed that I would have poor/no pressure if the master cylinder wasn't functioning properly. A previous contributor seemed to think it was the springs in (presumably) the pressure plate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ECR Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 Can you disconnect the pipe exiting the master cylinder and blank off the outlet. If so try standing on the clutch pedal and see if it sinks. (although if you have good pedal pressure at the moment you have effectively tried this) When you replaced the slave you did use new o rings on the outside of it didn't you ? (These are just as important as the internal seals) Did the slave unit come to you with internal seals already fitted ? As I understand it you are not able to disengage the clutch to select a gear.This means: a The master cylinder is not pressurising the slave b the slave is being pressurised but not moving c the slave is moving but there is a mechanical blockage in the clutch itself stopping disengagement. (Or perhaps a combination of all three if you are unlucky !) Are you loosing any fluid (check the bottom of the bellhousing) Re bleed. Good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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