Colin Grundy Posted February 22, 2003 Share Posted February 22, 2003 The Installation of the engine and gearbox was going according to plan untill finally lowering the engine into the final position on the engine mounts. The problem is that the plenum/inlet manifold lowers onto the right hand chassis rail. There is no way it will clear. This is a new 1.8 into a new chassis. Has anyone any ideas. The technical department at Caterham is not open untill Monday ,damn. As a temporary measure to enable disconnection of the crane we have placed 6 flat washers under the right hand engine mount and there is now about 2mm of clearance between inlet manifold and chassis rail. Whether Caterham have modified the mountings for the later engines Im not sure. Everything else lines up apart from this clearance problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawrence_Z Posted February 22, 2003 Share Posted February 22, 2003 Looks like you may have a vvc rhs engine mount ☹️ Do you have a platic or metal (vvc) plenum ? vvc is the metal one, that need the lower mount. Lawrence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Grundy Posted February 22, 2003 Author Share Posted February 22, 2003 Thanks Lawrence, Yes it is a metal plenum, but not a VVC engine. All of the latest 1.8 engines are the metal ones. The plastic ones are only used for the 1.6 now. I am suspecting it is the wrong engine mount though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawrence_Z Posted February 22, 2003 Share Posted February 22, 2003 OK then check the bonnet fits... If the engines too high for the bonnet, then you may need to buff a bit off the alloy plenum where it touches the chassis rail... Lawrence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Grundy Posted February 22, 2003 Author Share Posted February 22, 2003 Checked the bonnet. With 6 washers under the engine mount the sensor on the end of the plenum touches the bonnet. Still shuts though. Without the washers the engines resting on the chassis rail and wont meet the engine mount!! To grind that much away you would be through the metal casing. Im sure that there should be no need for grinding great lumps of various parts of the engine to get it to fit. something is fundementaly wrong here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawrence_Z Posted February 22, 2003 Share Posted February 22, 2003 There are various bit ground off the engine and diff for fitting purposes, very ocassionally one gets missed. The bonnet clearance is primary....perhaps someone will pitch in with the vvc plenum to bonnet clearance ?? Remember also that the clearance you require at the plenum is not equal to the value of the washers at the engine mount. Removing the plenum may allow you to estimate the amount required. Lawrence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted February 22, 2003 Share Posted February 22, 2003 Does your chassis have the removable rail? Is it the removeable rail that is fouling? Have you tried removing the rail. It is possible that the instruction book hasn't caught up with the needs of the new plenum, so might be advising the wrong location for the rail. I would remove it and see if another fitting works out better. The engine/plenum should not touch the bonnet at all, because a vibrating engine moving on its mountings would very quickly eat a hole in the aluminium bonnet. This means that the engine mount is probably right, but something else is wrong, hence my thoughts about the rail poition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony C Posted February 22, 2003 Share Posted February 22, 2003 Peter, I was assisting in the engine insertion in question and there is no removable rail. or We checked the mounting brackets against another 7 and they were slightly different, but it had a plastic plenum and there was 'shed-loads' of clearance between the rail and the plenum. Colin's car is brand new, the engine is 1800 cc and has the aluminum plenum fitted. I guess Caterham are aware of the tight clearance because the rear two plenum branches have a small amount of material removed at the bottom - I guess to give a small clearance with the chassis rail. When we correctly positioned the engine it was impossible to lower the engine fully onto the rubber mountings - the rear two plenum branches were resting on the chassis rail. We fitted five washers TEMPORARILY so that we could disconnect the crane and push the car back in the garage. The washers between the rubber mounting and the bracket give a couple of mm clearance at the plenum/chassis rail, but bring the top of the plenum 'a bit close' to the underside of the 'lid' - so this could not be a permenant 'fix'. I guess the guy grinding off the plenum branches stopped too soon - IMHO that is the problem. If on Monday Caterham say "That's alright, they're all like that". They'll be reciving a terse response 🙆🏻 It wouldn't be a good idea for 'us' to grind away until there is sufficient clearance - I can just immagine Caterham's "Why did you do that?" We checked the engine on the other 7 and it doesn't seem to move much on its mountings when rev'd, but IMHO, the vibration would quickly do a 'power of no good' to the plenum. It would be nice to hear from any other recent new engine 'inserters' to find-out if this problem has been encountered before, and what was Caterhams "Answer". Cheers, Tony Edited by - Tony C on 22 Feb 2003 20:52:56 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Locust Posted February 22, 2003 Share Posted February 22, 2003 EU3 1.6 fitted OK in mine but it's got the plastic inlets - not really of any help I know. Getting a std 4-1 manifold on is best described as snug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Grundy Posted February 23, 2003 Author Share Posted February 23, 2003 Thanks for your comment Peter, but as Tony pointed out there is no removeable rail. This completely contradicts what is in the build manual (so whats new!). I am assuming Caterham expect little clearance because the Plenum has been ground down at the rear and the chassis rail has a "flattened" portion towards the rear also. However, having looked at it again this morning there is a double edged sword here. If they (Caterham) have pre-fitted the wrong engine mounting to the right hand side, that will solve one issue. But, getting the adequate clearance between plenum and chassis rail will mean the plenum touching the bonnet. I dont know what, if anything, Caterham do to the engines when delivered from Rover, but I wonder if a) they have fitted a VVC plenum, or b) the engine mountings have been modified? Apart from the above the engine went in like a dream and everything else lines up perfectly. 🙆🏻 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawrence_Z Posted February 23, 2003 Share Posted February 23, 2003 Is it running yet? Lawrence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom7 Posted February 24, 2003 Share Posted February 24, 2003 AFAIK all 1.8 X power engines use the VVC style plenum, this change was made to enable 135bhp for the MGTF et al. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Duncan Posted February 24, 2003 Share Posted February 24, 2003 We had exactly the same problem and Caterham supplied a different mount which I understand was from the VVC engine. There is still not a lot of clearance between the rail and manifold, but it seems to be enough. (There is no removable section as stated in the manual). The bonnet also cleared the maniflod after fitting the new engine mounting without any further modification. The VVC engine mount which Caterham sent was not nearly as good a fit as it was about 6 mm out of alignment with the chassis thread. It did go in eventualy but only after loosening the gearbox crossmember and central fixing etc to get sufficient movement. Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Grundy Posted February 24, 2003 Author Share Posted February 24, 2003 Thanks Al, thats just the type of response I was looking for. Just for the record, how new is yours? To Caterhams credit I emailed Tim ward at about 8.0 am this morning and he responded within about 15 minutes. However he was suggesting that it is a known problem with the new engines and suggesting grinding down the plenum! (which has already been done by the factory,) and/ or putting washers under the right hand engine mount, which to me is not acceptable and moreover causes a clearance issue with the bonnet! I have re-mailed him and awaiting a reply. Two questions Al, how much clearance have you got now? and does the plenum clear the bonnet? and I presume your not using any washers to 'jack' the right hand side of the engine up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Duncan Posted February 24, 2003 Share Posted February 24, 2003 Colin We picked our kit up at the beginning of August and I believe it was one of the first with the ali plenum. Iain Webster at Caterham sorted it out. We did not use any washers and the clearance from memory is about 6mm but I will check that to-night. The manifold clears the bonnet and no grinding was necessary. The high point is the sensor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Grundy Posted February 24, 2003 Author Share Posted February 24, 2003 Thakyou Al you've been a great help. I have passed this information onto Tim Ward and am awaiting a response. For the record I have 3mm of space with 5 washers between the engine mount and the rubber mounting. Clearly something is not right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Duncan Posted February 24, 2003 Share Posted February 24, 2003 Colin, Now that im home and checked it :- We did put some washers under the Mount, 8mm approx. This left us with clearance of 2-3mm between the chassis rail and the inlet manifold tightest point. we have about 9mm between the top of the sensor and the bonnet. if you need any picks mail me off line hope this helps Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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