K series click

[p.mole1]

Just managed to bodge a quick repair to my hub till I get a replacement drove 2 miles,stopped the car and it wouldn't start!.

I could hear a relay clicking on the left hand side of the dashboard but nothing, gave it 4 tries then rang my wife for a bump start.

Took off the bonnet then gave it another try and it started?

I have since got it home and tried a few times and it started.

Any idea's?,I was going to remove the starter and have a look at the solenoid, looks like the connector has been badly repaired,clean the inside.Also the starter is wrapped in an aluminised heat resistant cloth.I have heard that the starters can get cooked by the exhaust

Didn't have any tools with me so I don't know if there was power to the starter solenoid.

[Jonathan Kay]

The Subject suggests that you know this already but it's a widely observed, discussed and fixed problem. Masses on it in the archives.

I'd start by:

• Reading the theories and fixes.
• Inspecting the solenoid and starter (as you suggest) and checking all the relevant electrical connections, including earths. Find, disconnect, inspect, clean, reconnect. Usual precautions.
• Ordering a multimeter if you don't have one.
• Checking that your battery is good: it's possible to waste a lot of time on the click if it isn't. What's the voltage at rest, during cranking and at 3,000rpm?

Jonathan

[p.mole1]

Hi Jonathon,

Just managed to get the search tool to work thanks.

Going to check the earths they look a bit tired, battery should be ok its new.

Most probably wiring as its 21 years old and its got some horrible crimped connectors I hate them!

Will get the spanners out tomorrow

[Jonathan Kay]

 ... battery should be ok its new.

Should be. But there are several reports of new batteries for 7s being duff. That's a problem in itself but if you're assuming adequate oomph in your diagnostic approach it can be confusing and waste your time.

If you don't have a meter yet to test the battery you can test if good connections with thick jump leads to another engine that's running fast makes any difference.

Look forward to hearing about your progress.

Jonathan

[p.mole1]

Hi thanks,

Yes got a multi meter,the reason I thought it wasn't the battery is the engine spins over like the clappers on the starter, but I will test the battery.

Also just found an article  on replacing the big relay under the ECU,seems like a good idea using standard automotive relays. 

 

[Jonathan Kay]

Yes, the article (and posts) on replacing the relay are just what you need... once you know that's the problem! :-)

Since you've got the meter: for this job showing there's continuity through the connections and wires isn't adequate; they need to deliver enough current to the solenoid.

Jonathan

PS: It's obvious that I'm rather cautious on eliminating battery problems. For your problem spinning fast probably means that it is OK. It's those ECUs that drop out if they aren't offered quite enough volts that can cause the confusion.

[john milner]

These are the relay mod instructions I followed - http://www.alcester-racing-sevens.com/starter_relay_mod.htm

A year or two later the new relay started playing up so it may be worth buying two as they are a doddle to swap when the wiring has been sorted.

[p.mole1]

Hi Jonathan,

You were right to start with the battery, I was told it had a new battery when I bought it, rubbish!

Its a wet cell type it's showing 12.6 volts so I had a look inside,every cell needed topping up,although the engine spins over really fast!

Battery now charged and seems ok and I don't think that's the problem.

The starter relay had a dodgy crimp connector,one of the earth leads was a bit past its best. I cleaned and soldered all the main battery and starter connections then put heat shrink on the leads. Overall the wiring is in pretty good condition for a 21 year old car, it's never seen any salt by looks of it.

Checked the starter, it's fine. An ancient recon Lucas item. I don't like the idea of it being wrapped in thermal matting as I think this probably does more harm than good and I'm looking to make a stainless heat shield to allow the heat to escape the starter?

The alternator may be a bit iffy as it only seems to charge at 14v max and drops to 13.6v with a full load on but its 1995 item. I thought it should be about 14.4 to about 14.7v however it can knock out 13.6 at tick over so it will have do for the minute.

Anyway its getting a test tomorrow as I'm off to Knockhill to watch the BSB, I got some free tickets. The last bike race I saw was Olivers Mount when my dad took me and Barry Sheen was racing.He got thrashed by a young Ron Haslem.

Got some cable and a multi meter this time,so at least I should be to find out if its a starter or a relay problem!

The good thing about bike meets are people are are friendly and a push start should be no bother!

[RogerB]

I have read through the instructions on fitting the additional relay as per John Milners post - great stuff. However I wondered if anyone had a simple wiring diagram for this mod.

[Jonathan Kay]

Battery now charged and seems ok and I don't think that's the problem.

What's the lowest voltage seen while cranking?

The alternator may be a bit iffy as it only seems to charge at 14v max and drops to 13.6v with a full load on but its 1995 item. I thought it should be about 14.4 to about 14.7v.

Might be OK. But assuming your battery isn't now going flat I don't think that's related to the starting problem.

Jonathan

[p.mole1]

Hi Jonathan,

Seemed to have ruled out the battery. The most likely cause was the poor quality crimped starter solenoid spade, or the relays.

Anyway no problems today, drove 350 miles today to watch BSB stopped and started numerous times not one hiccup and it was p****** down on the way back, so I had everything switched on.

I wonder if a lot of these problems are due to bad earth's, the main starter + lead and earth's are just crimped with no weather protection causing high resistance?

I still have a few wiring jobs to tidy up found a few more dodgy looking crimps but all on the lighting circuits.  

At least I now know my heated screen and half hood work!

 

[Jonathan Kay]

Well done. 

I didn't word the battery thing well. I suggest you record the voltage while cranking now to know if if it deteriorates.

There are suggestions that with some of the causes it's worse when the engine bay is very hot. Did you do any starts like that today?

Jonathan

[john milner]

I don't know of a wiring mod diagram but you might be able to create one from the information in these links:

http://www.alcester-racing-sevens.com/electrickery_part_three.htm

http://www.tom-seven.stillgame.ch/wiki/doku.php?id=multi_function_relay_unit

[p.mole1]

Thanks for the replies,

Everything seems fine since I've cleaned and soldered the wiring.

Hot and cold starts just the same ,fine now touch wood

I have wrapped the standard manifold in exhaust wrap don't know what this will do to the standard poor quality manifold.

[Bandit]

Hi

I'm not nearly as experienced in 7's as the other chaps here but do know my duff solenoids when I hear them.

In any case, I researched just as you are doing. Contrasting advice re clean, replace solenoid or replace solenoid plus starter. Somebody mentioned the manufacturer of the solenoid. They supply Caterham. Very helpful.They are based in Dartford. Do a search and you will find them. Solenoid was approx £40. Bought it. Fitted it. No further problems at all.

Cheap enough to give it a go.

ATB

Robert

[anthonym]

Check if any wires going to the starter are stiff. They should all be flexible. Replace any stiff ones. 

Click of death occurs with hot engine. Eventually it occurs with cold engine. 

Watch out for a wire hidden behind the starter about three inches long, if that exists, gets fried.

Anthony

[Jonathan Kay]

... but do know my duff solenoids when I hear them.

I'm confused. I thought the click could be due to at least one of:

• Duff solenoid.
• Insufficient current getting to the solenoid because of bad connections, tired (? cooked) wiring, relay on its way to meet its maker, battery pining for the fjords, etc. And that showing continuity or 12V at rest at the terminal wasn't an adequate test of enough smoke being available when it's really needed.

Jonathan

Edited to remove the ambiguity of "either".

 

[john milner]

I thought the common click cause was a hot solenoid becoming sticky and a worn relay not being able to provide sufficient current to unstick it.

[Bricol]

Does anyone have the same problem with their tin-tops?

I've had one starter go belly up in close to 30yrs of driving, on a 25 yr od Peugeot. 

10 yrs ago (could be more- doubt it's less) when my K-series started to click rather than start, I simply bypassed all the Caterham wiring to the starter motor relay.  Kept the starter power cables as they were.  New wire from ignition switch to trigger a new 30A relay under the dash.  That switched power direct from a new fused feed from the battery, down a new wire to the starter solenoid.

It starts every time.  Hot, very hot, heak soaked (queuing round Lausanne in mid-summer tests that), cold, very cold.  Of course it doesn't actually keep running, as I've never quite got the Emerald cold-start enrichment right - so I have to start it again . . . and again . . .  ;-)

Point I'm trying to make - instead of adding things to the already muli-jointed Caterham to Rover and back again loom, go around all those voltage sapping joints and problems.  Anything else is a sticking plaster.

[Jonathan Kay]

Does anyone have the same problem with their tin-tops?

That's a very good question.

And I agree with your thinking.

Jonathan