VVC rear belt -gear removal

[john milner]

I'll be changing the belts on my VVC shortly. Some of what I have read says that both the inlet and exhaust rear gears need to be removed to change the rear belt. I've not had a close look yet but I would have thought that just one needs to come off.

Do both need to come off?

If I only need to take off one then which is best? I'm thinking that the exhaust may be a little easier as it will be locked in place from the front so I would only need to focus on aligning the inlet correctly when refitting the belt.

To refit do I just torque it up or should threadlock cement be used as well?

To remove the crankshaft pulley I'm going to use the high gear, all brakes on and wheels chocked method as I can't work out how to jam a screwdriver in and keep it jammed.

[SM25T]

I only remove the inlet pulley when I change my rear belt. Use threadlock on bolt when tightening. Removing crankshaft pulley ..... you may be lucky ... but will probably have to jam flat blade screwdriver in teeth. Once you position it, use a friend to hold it in place. A long long breaker bar is your friend when undoing the bolt. I have the Elise VVC engine manual if you want a page or two from it. Ian

[SM25T]

I put small spots of white Tippex on old belts and pulleys in several positions before removal ... then transfer the spots to the new belts. Can't be a tooth out then.

[john milner]

I'm not clear on where the scredwdriver needs to be jammed. I know where the teeth are but can't figure out how to jam them. Also it is a lot easier to just get my wife to press the pedal. A half ton car, In gear with the brakes on and wheels chocked is probably a lot more than I can move with my arms turning the engine over.

I've got a two foot breaker bar and I'm hoping that is enough as 205Nm is about three times the tightness of the wheel nuts which I can shift easily with a standard wrench. If it isn't I have a mechanic in the family should reinforcements be needed.

I think I'm okay with a manual but it is odd as it says "Remove the camshaft gearwheels", "Remove the timing belt", "Fit the inlet camshaft gearwheel", "Fit the exahust camshaft gearwheel and timing belt together", "Refit the bolts". I can see that it may be slightly easier to remove the belt if both gearwheels are removed but it seems a waste of time if one can go back on its own. Also as it says do the exhaust last it seemed logical that if only one were to be removed then it should be the exhaust.

This is the source - http://www.mgrover-online.com/?p=1058

I lke the Tippex idea as it gives an extra layer of assurance that all is well.

[SM25T]

The rear pulleys each have a flange on one side (one inner and one outer from memory). I recall the inlet one must have been the best choice when I first did it. Certainly no need to take both off. Regarding holding them, I use a cam pulley tool which has two arms with pins on which you insert in the holes in the pulley to brace it against the torque wrench. Regarding screwdriver and teeth .... there are large holes each side of the bell housing where you can see the flywheel ring gear teeth. You just need to find a spot where you can jam a big flat blade between the teeth and something fixed .... relative to the way you are trying to loosen or tighten the crankshaft pulley bolt. It is quite easy.

[john milner]

I have a cam pulley tool.

I'll have another look at the ring gear but when I looked it was not obvious to me how to jam it. It's also a lot easier for me to get help from my wife than wait for someone who can jam the gear.

[SM25T]

Helped a friend do his cam belt recently. Tried the in gear, handbrake on and helpers foot on footbrake ..... wouldn't hold it. Found space for screwdriver on offside of engine .... positioned screwdriver .... they then just had to hold it in place while I loosened the bolt.

[SM25T]

Try the brake/gear thing .... you may be lucky. There is another high risk option .... socket and breaker bar .... on bolt head .... wedged on floor under car .... flick starter button with inertia switch tripped so engine won't start. Merest blip of button to crack the thread. Not to be recommended. No responsibility taken.

[john milner]

I have heard of the starter method and I'm not trying it. Way to risky for me.

The more I read on the rear belt change the less confident I become. Rover always have both pulleys off which is a waste, most people say take off the inlet but some say only ever do the exhaust, some say have the marks aligned inwards but others say when refitting turn 180 degrees so the marks are outwards. One thing they all agree on though it is easy. My guess from all that is that it means with common sense and good alignment of any sort it is easy.

Came across this document which is pretty handy for VVC info - http://www.rovermg.ru/files/0134%20VVC%201.8%20K%20Series%20RO.pdf

 

[SM25T]

The thing with the brake pedal and in gear ..... you are working with a radius maybe half way across the clutch plate. With ring gear you have the biggest radius possible, so much less load. Good luck with it. With Tippex marks all round ... including rear belt and pulleys ... you can do it.

[revilla]

I think you are over-thinking this one. Make sure the timing marks are lined up exactly before removing the belt and after putting the new one and it's right. Have a look as soon as you get the pulley back on its locating pin and if it's not right try again. If you read too much about it begins to sound complicated; when you actually do it you'll wo der what all the fuss is about. You only need to remove one pulley. Either one will do. If you take off the inlet pulley you need a tool to grip the pulley while you remove the bolt; never rely on the belt holding it against the torque of loosening or tightening the bolt, you will damage the belt. I find the exhaust pulley easiest. You can get a cheap cam locking tool off eBay the fits into the FRONT pulleys to lock them. Since the exhaust cam is a single solid cam, this locks the exhaust cam only at the back too. So then you can just whip the bolt out and torque up when done. Just make sure the timing marks at the front are lined up exactly, pop the locking tool in, remove the rear e haust pulley and the belt. Loop the new belt round the two pulleys and fiddle with until when you hold the exhaust oulley back in place the inlet oully timing mark aligns with it then bolt back in with some threadlock, torque it up and job done.

 

Where abouts are you?

[revilla]

One other thing, when checking the rear timing marks, get your head down in there and look at them end on otherwise the parallax of the viewing angle makes them look way off.

[Jonathan Kay]

Where abouts are you?

For me this was a belt too far, even though mine isn't a VVC. I knew I could probably do the job but I was scared of the consequences of getting it wrong so I chickened out and got James Whiting to do it. I don't think I'm alone.

Having someone who's done a few standing next to me might have been just what I needed to tip the balance. Is that what the sentence implies? I know there are some very helpful Members out there...

Jonathan

[john milner]

The comments about taking off the exhaust pulley are pretty much what I thought but I would say that most comments on message boards say do the inlet and all the manuals I have read say take off both.

I think I have all the tools needed - Draper locking tool for the front, a Laser cam gear wheel holding tool for the rear, a 24" breaker bar, 22mm impact socket and a torque wrench that goes to 210Nm.

I probably have over thought this as I started out with little knowledge and have ended up with too much and all from different hymn sheets. To me it seems logical to start with everything aligned and make sure it is aligned the same when finished. Why some people want to count 18 teeth then turn cams by 180 loses me completely. Odd that all the sources agree on how to do the front belt which I would have thought is marginally harder to do.

[Steve Sheldon]

You must turn the Rear cams 180 degs out or else they will spring round under load due to split camshaft. Mark with tippex. Does not work if just lock the front pulleys. Also fit new high tensile bolts and threadlock.

[revilla]

@Steve Sheldon: I have never turned mine - yes I know what you mean, at the point where the marks line up they are just on the edge of the cam lobes and can tend to want to snap around, but with a locking tool on the exhaust cam it won't go anywhere and a 17mm spanner or socket and breaker bar (don't use a ratchet, you'll want to be able to wiggle it both ways) on the nut on the inlet cam is easily enough to turn it to wherever you want it (and hold it if it's being awkward) - especially as if you only remove the exhaust pulley the inlet one remains torqued up so there is no tendency for the nut to come undone.

[john milner]

Is a new pulley bolt essential? 

I read somewhere that a recall happened years ago to fix loose bolts but  I assumed that this only applied to original models as there is no mention of replacing them in the Rover manuals that I have. Mike Satur does an upgraded bolt but I have not seen them advertised elsewhere.

[oilyhands]

I've changed around 100 rear belts one way or another. It is easier if the sprockets are 180 degrees away from their official timing position. Remove the exhaust pulley only, feed the belt onto the inlet pulley (which wont spring out of position. The latency in the exhaust cam and front belt will prevent that from moving too. Place the exhaust pulley onto the exhaust cam and do the bolt up enough to stop it slipping off, but not so much that it can't lean over. Lean the pulley over over so you can slip the belt onto the edge of the teeth, then gradually ease the belt onto the entire rim of the pulley, then do the bolt up enough to nip the pulley. Double check the pulley positions making sure you view from the right angle.

Use your favourite locking method to lock the pulley and torque the bolt. NEVER rely on the in gear method as this stresses the belt beyond its design limit since it takes the torque.

Dave

 

 

 

 

 

[revilla]

Dave,

Just to be clear, I presume you are saying that locking the crankshaft using the in-gear method (or any other) is not a safe way to hold the camshafts whilst torquing the pulleys and the belt takes the full torque. As a method of removing the crankshaft pulley, is there anything actually inherently wrong / dangerous with it (other than the fact that there's enough play to make it awkward to turn the wrench far enough to crack the bolt off and the "screwdriver in the teeth" method is easier, given that you must by definition have two people available if you are thinking of doing it by the in-gear method)?

Andrew

[oilyhands]

There is nothing wrong with the in gear method if you are undoing the main crank bolt, other than the wind-up in the transmission making life very awkward, especially when tightening. Just don't use the method for the cam pulley bolts, it could easily cause damage to the belt, or slippage of a couple of teeth.

Dave

[john milner]

I found some information on the VVC bolt recall. This affected VVC engines up to 1998 and was due to under torqueing the bolts.

There is allegedly another problem regarding the reuse of bolts. Most comments on this suggest that threadlock cement is enough to keep them in place and that bolts at risk of shearing would have sheared long ago.

The problems

A possible fix if required

[john milner]

I managed to get the pulley off. Very fiddly getting the socket lined up but came undone easier than I feared. I have though came across something that I am unsure about. The timing marks on front and rear pulleys all line up nicely but the two dots on the crankshaft sprocket don't. The front pulleys are not clearly labelled IN and EXHAUST as the manuals suggest but just have white paint.

When I'm finished I can either put things back as they were or I suppose get everything spot on. What's best?

[revilla]

Hard to tell from your pictures but are there actually cast-in marks underneath each of the paint marks? I've seen one set of pulleys recently where home-made marks had benn put on a tooth out of line.

The "Exhaust" and "Inlet" markings you describe from the manual I think apply only to the non-VVC head where the two pulleys are identical other than for their alignment on the cams, hence the markings. The VVC pulleys are completely different so you should be just aligning the marks as you have done.

If the camera angle isn't deceptive, I would say your engine was put together a tooth out of line!

You haven't had any DVA fancywork including offset dowels for the cam pulleys have you as there could lead to the timing marks looking odd, although I don't think you would get everything lined up like that with them.

If it does come back to being a tooth out, correct it ... and enjoy the extra performance.

[revilla]

On the cam locking tool at the front, the timing marks should align with the central rib on the tool as well as with each other. Do they? Really hard to see from the camera angle

[john milner]

The paint mark on the casing in the top picture is mine and is just highlighting the cast marking. It is about one tooth out from where it should be.

The cam pulleys front and back are perfectly aligned.

I suppose the fix is to slightly rotate the crank so the dots line up correctly before fitting the new belt.

Just hit another snag with the water pump. Haynes say it has five bolts but I can see only four and where the bottom one should be is a cast lump with hole in it and possibly a rubber bush. I am guessing my fifth bolt is inside this. I have had a poke around with a small screwdriver and something is in there but I can't figure out what it is or how to reach it. The new pump does not have the same cast lump but it does line up with a flange fixing hole.