Ade Ray Posted September 3, 2002 Share Posted September 3, 2002 Hi all My 1600 Xflow has been getting worse at starting. It used be just in the morning when it would take two attempts to start after I had primed the carbs. My efforts would be rewarded with the usual whine and no turn over. This started to get worse, manifesting itself even when the car was warmed through. I almost got caught out after I turned the engine off in the holding area at Curborough. My brother suggested a duff battery as the car seemed more likely to catch with an open throttle and Simon's opinion was that I was putting less strain on the battery. So last night I changed the battery and all seemed well with the car firing up no problem although it was still warm. This morning however we are back the same old story where it took me 20 go's to get her started. Additional useful information: Sometimes when I get a 'half' start and then it cuts out with vapour coming back out of the carbs and an unusual 'water down a plug hole' sound. I also seem to be getting more of that brown petrol vapour/oil mix down the side of my car underneath the carbs. I am open to any suggestions as to where to look next. Many thanks Ade ☹️ Make the world a better place, hug an estate agent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Sewell Posted September 3, 2002 Share Posted September 3, 2002 If the battery will try 20 starts then the battery is OK! My first two thoughts are fouled plugs or poor ignition timing. It is probably easier to check these in reverse order! If the plugs are fouled, then replacing/cleaning them will help in the short term, but you should find out why they foul (too rich) and correct it. Low tech luddite - xflow and proud! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevefoster Posted September 3, 2002 Share Posted September 3, 2002 First stop would be to jump her from another running car. You have changed for a new batt... Are you sure it is ok. I had a dud straight out the box once... Do the lights dim a lot when you try to start her... usual sign of duff batt. If no problem when jumping, do it several times to ensure it was not a freak start. If with help power it still plays up than suspect in order of cheapness:- 1. Contacts to battery and earth straps to engine, solenoid etc. 2. Batt cutout if you have one. 3. Solenoid 4. Starter. This could be worn or sticking gear drive. If the start spins and then whines I think it could be the gear engage mechanism not returning or not engaging properly. This could be due to poor batt power too... For fun See http://homepages.which.net/~paul.hills/Motors/Starters/StartersBody.html for some interesting dismantled pics of a Ford starter motor (they are making it suitable for use in robot wars...) Steve email: speedy.steve@ukonline.co.uk My racing pics, 7 DIY, race prep. Updated often here Hants (North) and Berkshire area club site here Edited by - stevefoster on 3 Sep 2002 08:53:57 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter T Posted September 3, 2002 Share Posted September 3, 2002 As with many starting problems, the fist place to check is the cranking/ battery area, make sure that your battery cables that run to the starter motor are clean and tight, also check you earth cable to the gearbox is tight and not frayed or chaffed anywhere, is your battery being charged? Once you have established that you have a reasonable cranking speed you can turn your attention to the ignition system, check your points (if you have any) dizy cap and rotor arm, if you leave your car out at night, you might well be getting condensation inside your dizy cap, while cranking it over check for a decent spark, also look at your ignition timing, have you changed your dizy cap recently? some cheap caps hardly fit well, throwing the timing out a few degrees which does not help. C7 PWT X-Flow all Steel Life begins at 40(00rpm) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ade Ray Posted September 3, 2002 Author Share Posted September 3, 2002 Thanks guys I am certain the battery connections are sound and I have replaced my battery master switch about a month ago. I have not been anywhere near the dizzy cap/rotr arm etc. I have to say I am not sure what I should be looking for when I take the dizzy cap off. Also, if the dizzy cap is a problem are they simple to replace or is adjustment required? Sorry for sounding such a mechanical numbskull! Ade Make the world a better place, hug an estate agent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ade Ray Posted September 3, 2002 Author Share Posted September 3, 2002 After my last starting episode I am begining to think that it is my starter motor. Just before the Katie finally started I got a rattle, a clunk and then the car started. The next time the car started first time but it was not a clean start. Could the rattle and clunk be the starter gear sorting itself out (temporarily)? If the gear is sticking - is this mendable or am I looking at replacement? Thanks Ade Make the world a better place, hug an estate agent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter T Posted September 3, 2002 Share Posted September 3, 2002 If your starter motor is shot, make sure that your flywheel ringear is not been chewed up either. C7 PWT X-Flow all Steel Life begins at 40(00rpm) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John E Posted September 3, 2002 Share Posted September 3, 2002 this does not sound like a starter motor or battery problem, it sounds more ignition related. what dizzy do you have and where is the car stored. condensation has been mentioned so it could be this, does the dizzy have points? is there a decent spark at each plug, how old are the ht leads, what is the timing like? i would be inclined to go through all of these likely culprits first as it sounds as though you are dumping fuel into the cylinders but it is not firing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevefoster Posted September 3, 2002 Share Posted September 3, 2002 Can you bump start it and does it run without problems? Steve email: speedy.steve@ukonline.co.uk My racing pics, 7 DIY, race prep. Updated often here Hants (North) and Berkshire area club site here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ade Ray Posted September 3, 2002 Author Share Posted September 3, 2002 I've never had to bump start the car, it has always (fingers crossed) eventually started. As I mentioned before I am not very familiar with dizzys/rotor arms although I am prepared to have a look as it is my day off tomorrow. The spark plug leads 'look' ok and as for the plugs themselves I will take them out this evening and have a look. As for storage of the car, she is stored in a sort of open backed garge, ie under cover and enclosed to the front and side. I allways thought that this was a good set up because she stays dry but it is well ventilated. Condensation I suppose could be an issue, sometimes my instrument dials do fog slightly but I do not know if you can relate this? Once the car is running, it is generally fine. I had been having a problem with the carbs being out of balance after I overtightened one but my brother seemed to have sorted that at Curborough. The carbs do have a tendency to get out of balance quickly but then I do a lot of miles in Katie. Thanks Ade Make the world a better place, hug an estate agent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevefoster Posted September 3, 2002 Share Posted September 3, 2002 It is the whine and clunking/not catching of the starter that make me think it or the solenoid is on the way out... I was think that if it bump starts easily then less probability of it being ignition / other setting. Admittedly a bump start can turn over the engine quicker than a starter... Steve email: speedy.steve@ukonline.co.uk My racing pics, 7 DIY, race prep. Updated often here Hants (North) and Berkshire area club site here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob_r Posted September 3, 2002 Share Posted September 3, 2002 last time I had a starting problem with a Xflow, it would never start easily when hot, nor if you missed it first cranking in the mornings. replacing what appeared to be good plugs with new ones solved the problem. worth a try - its a low cost option. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John E Posted September 3, 2002 Share Posted September 3, 2002 yes it does sound like that but probably the battery went flat and the new one gave the injection needed but then the problem occurred again. If all of the ignition is in good working order then it should at least fire. Is the starter the pre engaged variety Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ade Ray Posted September 3, 2002 Author Share Posted September 3, 2002 I have to say I would not know if my starter is of the pre-angaged variety or not. How would I tell? Sorry to be a bear of little brain. Ade Make the world a better place, hug an estate agent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevefoster Posted September 3, 2002 Share Posted September 3, 2002 From memory and looking at the pic in my Ford Capri Haynes manual 1969 to 1974 (covers the right age of 1600XF) both mine were pre-engaged type. "When the starter motor is removed the drive should be well washed with petrol or parafin to remove any grease or oil which may be the cause of a sticking pinion. Under no circumstances should these parts be lubricated." I had a sticking and non actuating starter on my 2nd 7. Cleaned as above and it was fine after that.... Steve email: speedy.steve@ukonline.co.uk My racing pics, 7 DIY, race prep. Updated often here Hants (North) and Berkshire area club site here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ade Ray Posted September 3, 2002 Author Share Posted September 3, 2002 Thanks for the info, looks like I am looking forward to a day under the car tomorrow ❗ Ade Make the world a better place, hug an estate agent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashaughnessy Posted September 3, 2002 Share Posted September 3, 2002 If the engine coughs and whines then the starter is the inertia type, not the pre-engaged type. When the engine half-starts (i.e. a cylinder fires and spins the engine but the rest of the cylinders don't follow suit) the engine spinning disengages the pinion of the inertia-type of starter and so the starter then whines in the manner described. On a car with a pre-engaged starter (i.e. mine), the usual method of starting after a layoff is to crank constantly until it catches and keep cranking until it is finally running. You don't keep turning the key to repeat the starting attempt. It definitely doesn't sound like the battery because a) you've replaced it, b) it could turn it over 20 times. It does sound like ignition or fuel because it is half catching. It sounds from your description like the starter correctly turns the engine, the engine half-starts, just enough to dis-engage the starter. Have you checked that you are getting sparks in all the spark plugs? (remove the plugs but keep them connected to the leads, hold a plug with well insulated pliers and hold it against an earth, crank the engine and look for the spark). Check the ignition timing statically. A nice way is to disconnect the low-tension wires from the coil and connect them to a light bulb. Turn the engine over using a spanner on the crankshaft pulley bolt. When the engine is about to get to TDC on the compression stroke on number one cylinder, the bulb should go out and you can check at what point the bulb went out by looking at the timing mark on the pulley. This is your static ignition timing. This works well on my car with old lucas electronic ignition, I don't know if it is a reliable way for all electronic ignition systems. Checking the gap size on the plugs is an easy thing to do. If you take the distributor cap off, you're looking to make sure it is clean inside and out, with no cracks. Check the contact points inside the cap (four small pieces of metal in opposite "corners"). They should be in good condition. It is normal to have some corrosion due to arcing between this contact and the rotor arm but if this is excessive it could interfere and need fixing. Also check the carbon contact in the centre of the cap. It is sprung so that it makes good contact on the rotor arm. Check the end of the rotor arm for excessive corrosion due to arcing. You can clean the arm and the contacts in the cap with emery paper if the corrosion isn't excessive. Do you have electronic ignition or points? If points, you can also get corrosion in the points for the same reason. The "water down the plug hole" noise is interesting. I wonder if you have a leak somewhere in the fuel supply? Perhaps the noise is the fuel leaking back out of the carbs and down the supply pipe? Checking for proper fuel supply is the next step after checking the good functioning of the ignition. The fogging of the instrument dials is a red herring, they all do this. Anthony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ade Ray Posted September 3, 2002 Author Share Posted September 3, 2002 Anthony Thanks for the detailed response. My main dilema seems where to start looking and after your post it seems to be sensible to start with the easy things and then work my way downhill to the nasty jobs. The fuel/carbs could well be still an issue. The funny noise I get is occasional but does seem to manifest after I have been trying to start the car a few times. I wondered if it was an over-priming of the carb from me continuing to depress the throttle as I turn the key. Is it possible to over prime the carbs? Thanks again Ade Make the world a better place, hug an estate agent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John E Posted September 4, 2002 Share Posted September 4, 2002 Phew that was a detailed reply but its all good stuff and confirms what has been said elsewhere. If your starter is of the older type then there will be a solenoid on the bulkhead but I dont think its this, I think its with the firing. When you initially prime the carbs pump the throttle about 4 - 6 times and then catch the firing when it happens, remember that from cold there is no choke being use so you are dumping large quantities of neat fuel into the engine. Having said all of that if it still does not fire then its back to ignition. I'm convinced that this is where your problem lies. Follow the plugs out and turning the engine over suggestion and the same with the bulb lighting exercise, this will confirm that your static is there or thereabouts. Try a new set of plugs, they do go off and its not always possible to identify. Does your dizzy have points? If it does then check the gap. If you really get no where give me a call on 07770 274 456 and I'll try to help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ade Ray Posted September 4, 2002 Author Share Posted September 4, 2002 THanks John, I'll post later once I have had a chance to look things over. Ade Make the world a better place, hug an estate agent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevefoster Posted September 4, 2002 Share Posted September 4, 2002 I would agree with the above if it's just hard to start and the starter spins her over with gusto. The starter clunking and whining perhaps is a red herring. They can do that from time to time esp if you are having to hammer away for ages. Doesn't Simon still have a load of spare XF bits? Dizzy/cap/leads ignition etc? What sort of fuel pump are you running? Mechanical or electric. The mechanical one does not prime the carb floats first, so some cranking is needed to fill them (usually not so much a problem if you are driving her everyday) then you can give her some pumps on the throttle. No of of pumps has always been temp related for my xf's. Summer ~5, winter 7 or 8. My current VX on carbs likes 7 or 8 pumps all year round. That is after the electric fuel pump has settled down and the floats are full. If I forget (very rare) then starting can be more hassle... Very hard to know with out hearing it... If the car runs/delivers power perfectly once started then fuel supply is not a problem. I wonder if you could have a balast resistor style coil? Er haven't played around with different coil starting voltages to running voltages on cars for 20 odd years... Steve email: speedy.steve@ukonline.co.uk My racing pics, 7 DIY, race prep. Updated often here Hants (North) and Berkshire area club site here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ade Ray Posted September 4, 2002 Author Share Posted September 4, 2002 Ok, the story so far... The test we did to check the starter motor was to engage reverse, leave the clutch out and turn the key. The starter motor pushed the car back no problem so we have assumed (hopefully correctly) that it is OK. We then looked at the dizzy. It was all dry inside and the contacts/rotor arm did need a little clean but it was only very slight. Of the spark plugs, the plugs serving cylinders 1 and 2 were slightly carbonised, 3 & 4 were fine. WE checked the first and last plugs for a spark and they were fine. At this point I phoned John E (thanks John). John suggested checking all plugs and we did just that and we got a spark from all four. I think the front two plugs are carbonised because prior to Curborough I was running with unbalanced carbs. Simon sorted them out with his handy gadget on the Sunday. We also checked the cylinders for fuel and we found that all was ok. We feel that if I was having a problem with fuel supply or the electrics, there would be some manifestation during the running of the car? John also mentioned that I might have too much fuel in the cylinders and that turning the car over with the plugs out would clear the excess fuel from the cylinders. We had a think about this and we also looked at the way I was trying to start the car. My tendency was to give 3 or 4 full pumps on the throttle and then have the throttle fairly open as I turned the key. We thought that this could be a problem with me dumping too much fuel into the cylinder. We went for a start with no priming and just a blip of throttle and she started first time. We are still not convinced that this is necessarily the answer and I will probably find out tomorrow morning but we do not know what else to check after looking at the above. Thanks very much for all the help so far and if anyone has any other ideas please let me know. Ade Make the world a better place, hug an estate agent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John E Posted September 4, 2002 Share Posted September 4, 2002 Thats good news. It may well be that your plugs are on the way out and are now sending you that message so a combination of this and an open throttle when starting may be the problem. My starting routine is a mentioned, 4 full pumps on the loud pedal and then turn it over, no pressure on the pedal but ready to catch it with some more loud pedal when it fires. When starting from hot I give very little throttle at all but catch it when it fires. If yours has started in the past with heafty pumps on the loud pedal then it points to something (plugs) saying that they are knacked. Let us know how you get on when starting from cold tomorrow. Edited by - John E on 4 Sep 2002 20:39:44 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashaughnessy Posted September 4, 2002 Share Posted September 4, 2002 It seems to me that using an inertia type starter on a crossflow with twin 40 webers is daft. When I start my engine it can take a LOT of cranking, depending on how long since I last ran it. Over a period of a few days, the petrol disappears from the carbs. When you try and start you first need to refill the carbs before the engine will run, hence the cranking (note - people with electric fuel pumps don't have this problem). If I'm in this situation, I just crank with my foot OFF the accelerator until it starts to cough. Once it does this, I start dabbing the throttle gently to introduce some petrol and it will catch. It make take several dabs and several coughs before it catches properly. At each dab and each cough, if I had an inertia starter, the starter would probably dis-engage and I'd have to try again, hence why I think the pre-engaged type is better. Each time you pump the throttle pedal, the accelerator pump jet things in the carburettors squirt a big dollop of petrol into the inlet. If you do this too much, this fuel will probably end up flooding the engine and the plugs and make it difficult to start. Hence why I only dab the throttle once the engine is already starting to cough by itself, because then I know it "wants it" :-) If you crank with the throttle wide open, this is probably a bad thing. The engine is harder to crank with an open throttle (so you'll kill the battery), plus you will get very slow air through the carbs which won't pick any fuel up. A closed throttle will mean fast air flow (though not much of it) which will mean nicely mixed mixture. Anthony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ade Ray Posted September 4, 2002 Author Share Posted September 4, 2002 Is it possible that my idle jets are not set correctly? Does anybody know what the correct setting for the idle jets on a 1600 xflow are? I went to my area meet this evening, Car started 2nd time when I left home to go to the meet. It again started 2nd time on my way home (good blat coming home-20 minute journey). When I got home I had to move my wifes car out of the way so I could get Katie in the garage so I stopped my car, moved Lisa's and when I went back to mine She started but then cut out with a cough and then resolutely failed to start again as before. Tomorrow I will try a change of plugs and I might just change the dizzy cap and rotor just for the hell of it. Thanks chaps Ade *confused*Ray Make the world a better place, hug an estate agent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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