Clutch release bearing renewal , help needed or I'll miss Baywatch

[johns]

OK

 

So my 1.6 1997 K series supersport has made a rattle whilst idling since I had the car. The problem could be cured by gently resting the foot on the clutch pedal.

 

Now the problem occures whilst driving, so I have to rest my foot on the pedal constantly to stop the rattling/vibrations that come through the clutch pedal.

 

In a pre Baywatch manouvre I decided to take my girlfriend to the pub this Sunday afternoon and she agreed (second time since we've had the car that we've ever been out together) to come with me.

 

all the way there the rattling was 'aggressive', especially when changing gear, and it was terrible unless you depressed the clutch substantially with the foot whilst driving. If you drive with your foot just off the pedal the pedal vibrates so much it slaps against your clutch foot.

 

I inspected the pedal box area and all is fine

 

BUT.....

 

The metal fork that is joined to the other end of the clutch cable can be manhandled upwards to the point that it hits the air filter, downwards till it contacts the bell housing floor and left to right so much it contacts the bell housing casting. There are visible scratch marks on the side of the bell housing where I assume its done its rattling.

 

I've consulted the mechanic which services the car and he advises that it is a failure of the Clutch release bearing (apparently you can see its knackered if you look into the bell housing as there are bits of is on show).

 

He has therefore advised me to get a ‘clutch kit’ consisting of a pressure plate, driven plate & release bearing.

 

I ordered my last Caterham parts from Redline and was more than happy with the service, are they likely to be able to supply these parts or should I go direct to Caterham.

 

The mechanic has also suggested that I obtain an uprated CRB if possible. Is such a thing available and from whom and at what cost.

 

Also with regard to the work, is it best to remove the gear box or the engine to gain access to the old CRB?

 

Is there enough room to slide the engine forward into the nosecone to avoid having to lift it out all together?

 

The other big question is I cannot get this work done till mid august at the mechanics garage.

 

Are there any club members out there that are willing to help me with this job? I have a 3 tonne jack, axle stands and a car port and I was really looking forward to doing the Baywatch rally this weekend (24th July).

 

I'm no mechanic but am more than happy to be a spanner monkey for someone who knows what they are doing.If you can help with any of the above please let me know.

 

kind regards

 

John s

 

aka Klein

 

Burgess Hill

 

 

Edited by - johns on 18 Jul 2005 00:46:25

[shn7]

Hi Klein,

 

Sorry to hear about your problem. I'm not entirely sure it's the CRB given the amount you are able to move the clutch arm about. I'm wondering it the clutch arm itself has broken one of the legs that engage at the bottom of the bellhousing allowing it to float around rather more than it should.

 

Having said that, have you checked the adjustment of the clutch cable. A slack cable could allow it all to rattle around and putting some pressure on the pedal would stop this.

 

If it comes to dismantling then you will need to remove the engine or engine and gearbox (my preference). Replacing the clutch plate/cover depends upon how worn it is likely to be.

 

Wish I could offer some physical help but I'm just a little too far away and rather busy evenings at the moment.

 

Good luck.

 

Steve.

[_Tim_]

When my CRB went i had trouble dis-engaging the clutch and was getting some serious crunching when trying to select gears (happened in the middle of a Snetterton test session annoyingly).

 

Looking at a pic of the bell housing/clutch fork/CRB from my build diary: here I can't figure out how your symptoms would relate to a CRB failure.

 

Marc Hicks did mine in about the time it would have taken me to take the bonnet off, but I believe it was an engine out job.

 

- Tim

 

Caterham 7 - BMW E30 M3 - Nissan Navara

[Myles]

A slack cable could allow it all to rattle around and putting some pressure on the pedal would

 

Indeed.

 

When my cable broke a few weeks ago, I fitted another by the roadside - *but* I almost called the RAC when I checked the clutch-fork as it was flopping around most alarmingly. Once the cable was on and adjusted, it was (obviously) fine.

 

The doubt in my mind, however, stems from the fact that for it to be this loose, it's unlikely you'd be able to actuate the clutch and change gear unless you had *monster* clutch-pedal travel...

 

If the CRB is a problem then there's no automatic reason why you'll need a new clutch plate and/or cover.

 

It'll be engine-out realistically - but my preference is to leave the gearbox in place.

 

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---

[johns]

Many thanks Lads

 

Tim, I checked out your pictures, very informative, by the way where does Marc Hicks live? Hopefully he lives in Burgess Hill at the end of my street :-)

 

I might have a fiddle with the clutch cable to be absolutely sure its not that old chestnut!

 

Regards

 

John S

 

Edited by - johns on 18 Jul 2005 09:52:40

[_Tim_]

I don't think Marc is running his 7 business anymore, but he was not far from me in rural Norfolk.

 

- Tim

 

Caterham 7 - BMW E30 M3 - Nissan Navara

[MartinWoodham]

John,

 

it doesn't sound like CRB to me at all - more like the clutch arm has detatched from its locating pin...but then your clutch still works, doesn't it? Anyway I'd suspect the arm rather than the CRB.

If it is the CRB there is a new uprated one with a different type of bearing cage inside (which is the bit that usualy fails - and it's internal so I don't see how your mechanic can see the failure through the hole in the bellhousing - can he see through the solid metal of the bearing?!)

 

FWIW I've driven on a failed CRB for over 9 months, maybe 2500 miles, 800 miles-ish trackdays/ testing or racing, and apart from the awful noise had no probs at all. Clutch take up is a bit rough, but I've never had the pedal movements that you describe, nor been able to stop the noise by applying a bit of clutch. A bit or rev usually quietens it down. Also there are generally no symptoms during driving - only when declutching.

 

Re-reading your post I'm more convinced it's not the CRB - I'd investigate the clutch arm fully before pulling the engine out. The pivot end of the clutch arm sits on a little barbed pin, and is retained only by a short length of plastic tube held on the pin's barb. If the clutch arm or the plastic tube worked its way loose, you'd get big movements in the clutch arm (check), noise as the arm moves around (but held in rough location by the hole in the bellhousing)(check)...and pressure on the clutch would probably be enough to stop this movement and stop the noise (check).

 

I'm probably talking out of my *rse, but I'd definitely get the arm checked out before pulling the engine - move the rubber gaiter that covers the clutch end of the cable mechanism and lets you peer into the bellhousing (use a torch!). Have a look through the hole and get someone to declutch while you watch the clutch arm - try to determine if the far end of the arm (opposite end from the cable) is a fixed pivot, or if it's got free play in it from side to side. It should be very tight sideways, ie behave like a hinge, only allowing movement front to back. If it moves side to side, the arm's become detatched, and there's your culprit.

 

Let us know how you get on....!and good luck 😬

 

Martin

Roadsports B

If everything's under control you're going too slow (Emmerson Fittipaldi)

[Nick Green]

Must admit it sounds more like the arm has come adrift, to me too. Having said that, if you are detaching engine from bellhousing to change/refit the arm, you may as well change the CRB while you are at it. Sod's Law means it will fail within 1k miles if you don't.

[johns]

Thanks Martin and Nick

 

Yes the clutch fork does move side to side so much so that if you pull it sideways it will hit the sides of the hole it pokes through!

 

There never was a rubber cover over the hole since I bought it and as such theres a lack of grease in the area. Maybe I should order a rubber bootie cover whilst I'm at it.

 

My other question is.....if it is the clutch fork that needs resitting can that be fixed without taking the engine out? should I reuse the old one or buy a new clutch fork and barbed pin and plastic tube retainer to go on the barb etc.?

 

regards

 

John S

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by - johns on 18 Jul 2005 11:11:24

[Myles]

Hmm - I can't remember this bit clearly, but I wouldn't be surprised if my clutch arm could touch the sides when the cable broke - for a short while I was *convinced* that it had failed . As I said before, it was only when I rigged-up the cable and applied proper tension that it stopped acting like a casualty.

 

*still* don't see how you could have the cable so loose as to allow the fork to flap and still change gear (hayoooge pedal-travel excepted) - so it doesn't quite add up.

 

Is it a dry-sumped car, by the way? I've been reliably-informed that they didn't come with boots for the orifice in the bellhousing for some inexplicable reason...

 

Top-tip while you're poking around - don't drop anything in the hole! It is such a PITA to get the item back out - doubly so if it is stainless or otherwise non-magnetic... ☹️

 

If the fork has come adrift, I doubt you'll have much luck trying to persuade it back into place in situ - and the vast likelihood is that it will just come adrift again -best to find out *why* it has come adrift and fix the cause rather than the symptom.

 

Project Scope-Creep is live...

 

Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™

 

Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com

---

[Jason Plato]

I would suggest you get it over to a specialist - like Caterham or Redline who I think are near to you , for them to have a quick look through your bellhousing hole - only then can you make a diagnosis

 

if it is the clutch fork detached from its lower clip then I dont see how you could disingage the clutch as it wouldnt pivot - although you should be able to clip it back on without taking the engine out .

 

also the arm is clipped onto the CRB so verticle movement is limited - yet you said it can be lifted upwards ........

 

 

 

 

[wild bill]

Good post as i have exactly the same vibration behind dash which stops if resting foot gently on clutch pedal and its alot less pronounced since fitting a new cable but clutch pedal bounces against foot as you go to depress clutch. I've no idea what it might be and though it was possibly a knackered return spring so i'd be interested in the outcome Johns

[johns]

boing

[wild bill]

Johns

 

i checked inside the clutch cable boot cover last night and the arm does move a bit from side to side but that's all and i couldn't for the life of me see how to stop this from happening as even with a torch it's black as night in there so i am no further forward.

[johns]

Ok

 

So I’ve fashioned a small torch on a piece of wire and lowered it into the Bell Housing.

 

Although the clutch fork can be pulled by hand to touch the left and right hand sides of the Bell Housing, it can also be pulled upwards about 2 inches till it contacts a big wiring loom under the air filter.

 

I’ve inspected inside the Bell housing and can report as follows

1. Behind the clutch fork (in the direction of the gear box) is something that was once circular and metal but has got what looks like part of it sheared flat. (imagine a flatish circular piece of metal the size of a beer can top).

2. Then there is the rusty clutch fork

3. Then there is circular piece or steel about 15mm thick (about the size of a role of electricians insulating tape with what looks like sandpaper around its edge

4. Then another steel ring the same diameter as number 3 but only 3-5mm thick

 

Then there is the end, all the above is sitting on a thick metal shaft.

 

It should be noted that numbers 3&4 can be wiggled about on the shaft a good 5-10mm in all directions. I know this as I’ve just got my hand stuck in the Bell housing whilst having a feel and had to wait till my Girlfriend came out to help me. I had to be brave and pull my hand out although its all cut now!.

 

I spoke to John at Redline today and he says they only do one type of CRB supplied by Caterham, its better than the one I have on the car from new apparently and the new ones are made by SKF?. He also advises that if the car has a short ‘Gear box Front Cover’ Redline can supply a longer ‘Gear box Front Cover’ that is now standard on all K series after mine. Is this a necessary upgrade? John recommends it for about £45.

 

It was not John at Redline that recommended the ‘Clutch Kit’ is was me that thought if I was going to replace the CRB should I go the whole hog and replace the Pressure Plate and driven plate whilst I’m at it. The car is on 11,000 miles and is wet sumped.

 

It now appears impossible to try and hook the clutch fork on its pin (if its come off) as theres just not enough room to get my hands in (and out again).

 

Many thanks for the replies,

 

I’ll order the clutch kit from Redline tomorrow. John Howe has offered me the use of his engine hoist and I have a 3 tonne jack and axle stands. If anyone fancies holding my hand between now and Sunday and showing me how to pull the engine out please give me a call, I’m willing to learn and have a shiny new spanner set!

 

Regards

 

John Sergi

Burgess Hill

West Sussex

 

[Myles]

Pictures of the old and new CRBs here - half way down.

 

Project Scope-Creep is live...

 

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---

[shn7]

John,

 

Still sounds to me like the clutch arm has come adrift from the prong at the bottom of the bellhousing. If you are going for a new clutch plate/cover/CRB then there's only one other part that I can think of that you'd be missing to ensure you have everything. That's a new clutch arm which in the case of a wet sump car isn't too much IIRC (a lot more for a DS'd version).

 

Don't forget to get new bolts for the clutch cover and make sure these are thread locked.

 

I think it's now down to getting it all apart and dealing with whatever is the cause of the problem.

 

Wish I could spare some time to come and help. I can say that I can (single handed) get my engine/gearbox out in just under 3 hours and the re-install takes about the same. Then allow an hour or so to split the engine/gearbox and re-assemble with new parts. So if you manage to have some willing assistance then it should be possible to have it all done in 5 or 6 hours max.

 

Steve.

[Jason Plato]

I still suggest you get the car to a specialist who may be able to confirm what the fault is simply by looking at it . You dont live far from Caterham or redline ?

 

I cant see the point in hooking the engine out and fitting a new clutch when you havent actually determined what the fault is

 

your going to miss baywatch anyway so you might as well take your time and seek some advice from the experts

[Nick Green]

Hi John.

 

>

> So I’ve fashioned a small torch on a piece of wire and

> lowered it into the Bell Housing.

 

There must be a market for little cameras, to be able to do this...

Would a video bullet cam get in the hole ?

 

>

> Although the clutch fork can be pulled by hand to touch the

> left and right hand sides of the Bell Housing, it can also be

> pulled upwards about 2 inches till it contacts a big wiring

> loom under the air filter.

 

I have a DS on my car, so the clutch fork is different, but I fail to see how being able to *lift* the arm 2 inches vertically is a good thing. I'm sure even the wet sump version should be wedged on a little pin at the bottom of the housing.

 

The "wedging" is thanks to a little bit of plastic tube (nothing special, just a little bit of flexible plastic tube) that you soften by dropping in a glass of hot water, then fish out and push onto the pin. If this tube has fallen off or split, you have to take the engine out, minimum, to access it.

 

>

> I’ve inspected inside the Bell housing and can report as follows

> 1. Behind the clutch fork (in the direction of the gear

> box) is something that was once circular and metal but has

> got what looks like part of it sheared flat. (imagine a

> flatish circular piece of metal the size of a beer can top).

 

Not sure what is behind the clutch fork... Not a lot as I recall... apart from the gearbox, of course.

 

> 2. Then there is the rusty clutch fork

> 3. Then there is circular piece or steel about 15mm thick

> (about the size of a role of electricians insulating tape

> with what looks like sandpaper around its edge

> 4. Then another steel ring the same diameter as number 3

> but only 3-5mm thick

 

3 and 4 sounds vaguely like the CRB...

 

>

> Then there is the end, all the above is sitting on a thick

> metal shaft.

 

This is the gearbox "nose" which has the shaft running through it, that slots into the end of the crankshaft.

 

>

> It should be noted that numbers 3&4 can be wiggled about on

> the shaft a good 5-10mm in all directions. I know this as

> I’ve just got my hand stuck in the Bell housing whilst having

> a feel and had to wait till my Girlfriend came out to help

> me. I had to be brave and pull my hand out although its all cut now!.

 

The car does bite back now and then.

 

The bearing can be slid about on its plastic carrier. From new it is stiff. As it ages, especially in the Caterham installation, it is able to move around much more easily.

 

(It shouldn't, as the point of the bearing being able to move on its plastic mounting is to allow it to self centre. Logic would suggest it only has to do this once, so it should never become loose on the plastic mounting. However, the theory of CRB failure in Caterhams, is that due to insufficient pre-load of the CRB, it slips against the clutch fingers, and overheats, yadda, yadda.)

 

>

> I spoke to John at Redline today and he says they only do one

> type of CRB supplied by Caterham, its better than the one I

> have on the car from new apparently and the new ones are made

> by SKF?.

 

So I understand. Just had a look at Myles' pictures. Looks a bit different in terms of shape, but still looks like metal bearing on plastic carrier ? Would be interested to know preload details etc, for this bearing. Whatever, let's hope it is more durable in a Caterham.

 

> He also advises that if the car has a short ‘Gear

> box Front Cover’ Redline can supply a longer ‘Gear box Front

> Cover’ that is now standard on all K series after mine. Is

> this a necessary upgrade? John recommends it for about £45.

 

This is the gearbox nose I was referring to above. On early 6 speeders, the gearbox nose piece covering the shaft, was a little too short and the bearing could slide far enough forward off the front, to go out of alignment against the clutch. Also the earlier noses were alloy and would wear, thus allowing the bearing to slop around a bit.

 

If memeory serves me correctly, the longer nose came in around '98 or '99. I am more than prepared to be corrected on this. You *may* therefore have the shorter cover on your gearbox. If that is the case, Yes, definitely change it.

 

The way to spot what you have, is that the newer gearbox nose is obviously of 2-metal construction, with the area where the CRB runs, being steel and *slightly* thicker than the rest of the shaft cover to which it is attached. The earlier nose is all alloy.

 

>

> It was not John at Redline that recommended the ‘Clutch Kit’

> is was me that thought if I was going to replace the CRB

> should I go the whole hog and replace the Pressure Plate and

> driven plate whilst I’m at it. The car is on 11,000 miles

> and is wet sumped.

 

At 11k miles, I'll be surprised if the clutch is knackered. Unless, of course, the supposedly knackered bearing/clutch fork, has caused damage to be done...

 

>

> It now appears impossible to try and hook the clutch fork on

> its pin (if its come off) as theres just not enough room to

> get my hands in (and out again).

 

See above for another reason why not.

 

>

> I’ll order the clutch kit from Redline tomorrow. John Howe

 

If you want to be sure, I suppose so, but as Steve suggests, it would also be prudent to get a new CRB and clutch fork.

 

Dave's suggestion of at least getting a professional second opinion might also be a good idea ? Depends how far you want to drive the car in its present state though...

 

Good luck.

 

Nick.

 

 

Edited by - Nick Green on 20 Jul 2005 10:29:46