Beej Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 Help? I've just bought an ex Vx racer which has a full cage fitted - the type where the back is like a standard FIA roll bar and then there is a screen surround with straight bars linking the front (screen) hoop to the rear (head) hoop. Hope that makes sense. Thing is, I'm not particularly tall - 5'11"- but my helmet/head knocks on the link bar. I have a standard tillet seat fitted and, of course, I can scooch down in the seat but what's the point in having a proper race seat if you don't sit in it properly? Does anyone know if the brackets on the roll cage can be modified to gain an extra 1/2" of head room? Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil F Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 I think that's the problem with the Tillet seat; they raise you up too much. I have an Academy car and have just fitted a full cage, standard height, and I only fit in there because I made a 2 pack seat (I'm 5'11 also). Having said that, the seat is incredibly comfortable and there is really no problem with helmet clearance now. I have a pair of leather seats for road use and clearance is much reduced (although I don't wear the helmet on the road of course). I believe you can lower the Tillets slightly by removing the runners but you would need to speak to someone who knows about such things. The alternative is a tall cage (you can't adjust the cage's mounting points) but that would mean that your hood won't fit anymore (assuming you have one). I know that for next years Academy cars they have lowered the floorpan and no-longer offer the tall cage as it is deemed unecessary. Neil. Better to burn away and fade out, than to burn out and fade away.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darren f Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 I was at the factory a couple of weeks ago to try a standard 'Roadsport' caged car (which, by the sound of things is what Beej has got) as I had the chance of a second-hand cage. Being 6'1" I also had the 'head banging' problem. Speaking to Simon Lambert, the two options are (1) the tall cage- which isn't the most aesthetically pleasing thing to put on your Seven or (2) the lowered floor pan which is now offered as an after-market fitment. Tried an R500 with the pan fitted and was quite taken with how much lower you sat in the car. You seemed to have more car around you (funnily enough ), albeit at the expense of visibility over the bonnet. Upon asking, the floor panel is about £200 to buy *eek*, but they had only fitted a couple so far so couldn't quote a labour figure. Oh and there was a 3-4 week wait before some more panels come in. This in addition to the cost of the cage resulted in me putting it back to next winters project. darren f The Building of R300SEV is Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beej Posted June 9, 2003 Author Share Posted June 9, 2003 thanks guys.. the tillet seat (which is excellent BTW) sits on it lowest setting and would not be any lower without the runners. I guess the honeycomb floor pan adds a few mm to overall height but you still have the chassis cross members to deal with even if I ripped that out. So it sounds like I have to:- 1. modify the cage, or 2. modify the floor plan (£200 to cut and shut a cross member, sounds a tad pricey?),or 3. chuck the roll cage and fit a standard FIA bar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil F Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 Option 3 sounds a bit risky if you are planning to go on track as you will obviously not have the required head clearance if it all goes tyres up. MSA/FIA regs dictate 50mm clearance between the top of the helmet and the top of the rollbar/cage so if you intend to race it that will be an issue. Neil. Better to burn away and fade out, than to burn out and fade away.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beej Posted June 9, 2003 Author Share Posted June 9, 2003 O Bugger - you have a very good point there and that was probably the cheapest option too. It also highlights that option 4 (drive with a permanent crick in the neck) is not an option either. Although I have no intention of racing - just track days - there is a part of me that says the only way I am ever going to know if I am any good is mix it with the big boys. I don't even know what series the car would be eligible for (if any) but it makes sense to allow for the possibility. How hard can it be to modify the strut so that it curves up and over rather than going straight? Don't answer that.. I just know its going to be a pain in the ****. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil F Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 Actually that reminds me of another possibility... If you were to fit an FIA rollbar you can actually have a hoop welded on the top to increase your clearance. This is allowed under MSA/FIA rules so long as the hoop is shoulder width. A certain Mark Durrant who posts on here gave me details of this once before and I'm sure he'd be pleased to help you out with a contact. Arch motors would almost certainly do the work come to think of it. You could then have your hood modified to cover the hoop much like a tillet tonneau. Again Mark knows a man that can. I guess this is still going to be pricey but if you sell your cage and get a decent price on an FIA bar it could be an option. For my part I'd modify the floor to be honest. I like sitting low in the car and under track conditions I find I get lots more feedback compared to with my road seats. I also tend to get the sensation that I'm "in the car rather than on it" if you know what I mean. Neil Better to burn away and fade out, than to burn out and fade away.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 I would reckon that you can get it sorted by working out a better way to recline the Tillet further; most mounting positions have them way too upright. Another "must" is to get proper padding on the rollcage anywhere your head (helmeted or not) could come into contact with it. Failure to do this is inviting neurological damage (ie. Beej becomes a vegetable) in the case of a shunt. Once done, it will be easier to live with occasional head/cage contact anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooby dooby doo Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 or fit the superlight cage - its as tall as a tall FIA bar and aesthetically much nicer. HOOPY R706KGU 495 kg 200 bhp Hoopylight R - R is for running in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooby dooby doo Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 agree about reclining the tillets more as well. I've got twice as many spacers under the front as Tillet supply and I know others with more than twice as much as me. HOOPY R706KGU 495 kg 200 bhp Hoopylight R - R is for running in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V7 SLR Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 If you're only 5'11" (who am I kidding... "only") then just recline the seat. You will benefit from increased under-thigh support too, something those seats lack when installed as standard. I've seen people way taller than you manage quite successfully with the normal cage or FIA bar. Worcs L7 club joint AO.//Membership No. 4379//Azure Blue SLR No. 0077//Se7ens List Tours Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevefoster Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 Concur with Peter and Nigel. I am 6' 2" and have it well reclined and don't even rub on the forward cross member padding with me helmet on. Never been stopped racing even when I did rub. Another option is a seat lowering kit that is now available. You should not need this. Junk the runners they weigh too much unless you are sharing the car with a shorty. My racing pics, 7 DIY, race prep. Updated often here Photo's of the year here Hants (North) and Berkshire Area club site here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelw Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 Following on from this and an "FIA bars can collapse" posting a couple of weeks ago, the cages I have seen on race cars have horizontal bars from rear cage to the screen bars and semi-circular bars as well. Is there anybody who does a cage without the horizontal bars to make getting in and out easier? (I am only doing track days and road driving) Also does the lowered floor effect the ground clearance or is the sump still the lowest part of the car (VX with Caterham dry sump)? Michael. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 Would sir like gullwing doors with that...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beej Posted June 10, 2003 Author Share Posted June 10, 2003 I am really grateful for all your comments and my conclusions are as follows:- There are design limitations with this style of roll cage trying to fit under the standard fit hood. Even if I sit on the floor I will still have inadequate headroom unless I change the rake of the seat back to a more laid back position. The problem with doing this is that, a) it hurts my back and b) I much prefer the car control achievable with a more upright driving position - for many people these are not issues but they are for me. I work on the basis that being comfortable is 90% of going faster. Changing the roll cage height could be done but its a relatively expensive option, is not aesthetically attractive and might affect the structural integrity of the roll cage. Dropping the floor pan isn't exactly easy or cheap either but it has the advantages of not spoiling the lines of the car, giving a more in-the-car feel and offering greater wind protection. So far as I can tell there is at least an inch to be gained without compromising the rideheight.. the bell housing/sump is still the lowest point (even on my dry sumped car). Of course, it might be different when I try and get over some speed humps! Bearing in mind how strong aluminium honeycomb seems to be I anticipate it might be possible to direct mount the Tillet (ie no runners) to a slightly lowered floor pan with the arse bulge area (technical term) cut away to gain even greater improvements. Just a thought. I'll let you know if it works!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beej Posted June 10, 2003 Author Share Posted June 10, 2003 Would sir like gullwing doors with that...? ooh yes please.. and air con, alcantara, sat nav, airbags, cup holders and (ideally) a hostess service *smile* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 Peter C! Regarding your post about the rollbar padding etc. - I've got Tillets and an FIA bar and am trying to find a solution to the problem of having my head 2.5 inches in front of the diagonal. I don't think the FIA pad will fit - leaving me with a padding option only. Safety Devices gave me some conflicting quotes for Confor foam - starting with 75+VAT for a 600mm length and then contradicting themselves with 340+Vat per sq. foot. Is this the recommended way to go, or is there another decent, rate responsive foam out there...? (ps O/T - would like to hear more about the 'Fish Hill' fuel thingy... - I have only found an inline rollover valve at 13.50 in DT - is this it???) Regds, Myles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 I suspect that most people have baulked at the cost of rate responsive foam. I use the high density roll bar padding. The in line rollover valve is the thing (little red anodized number). You have to be very careful to mount it the right way up... It should breathe air in and out. It should close off if fuel tries to slosh out. It should close off if inverted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 Thanks Peter, I'm seriously tempted by the Confor - trying to find out (without success so far) if there are any age/UV/water/heat degradation issues... I think Safety Devices are a bit dissapointed I only want a teeny bit by their standards... I post you another Q on the fuel valve on the other thread. Thanks and regds, Myles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 Hi Beej One other option might be to look at Arch's dropped floor solution, which might gain 40+ mm. Also you could look at direct seat fixing ( apologies if this is already mentioned ) to gain another 10-15 mm Might be a quick win of 50 mm ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelw Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 You mean your car hasn't got Gull wing doors - this is the Murcielago forum isn't it. I guess you are right, no point in hanging upside down thinking (hopefully) should have done it properly Michael. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beej Posted June 16, 2003 Author Share Posted June 16, 2003 I thought everyone might appreciate a quick update on this since it seems to be a fairly common problem. I decided to lower the seat/floorpan rather than modify or junk the roll cage. By removing the honeycomb ali floor panel (glued to the basic ali floorpan) and direct bolting the Tillet to the ali sheet I gained around 50 mm. Furthermore, by fitting the seat hard left up against the transmission tunnel and tilting it slightly by using more packing washers under the right hand bolt holes than the left, I have cleared the roll bar - even with a helmet on, even with the seat relatively upright. I've also saved some weight from junking the runners nd ali honeycomb but at the potential cost of lack of strength and protection in the floorpan. Of course, if only it was that easy. Some tips that might help if you go down this route... You will need to relieve some GRP from the left hand side of the seat base where it sits over the thin chassis cross (angled) member. You will need to cut out the ali floor pan around the central base portion of the seat because the bum part sits lower than the mounting points at the sides. The effect of this is that your bum sits about 25mm lower than the floorpan. To add strength, protection and a finished result, I made up a 25mm deep "baking tray" (as my wife called it) - 30cm by 21cm to cover the protruding seat base bulge. This was seam sealed and riveted to the floor pan and foam filled for good measure. The baking tray does not protrude any lower than the cross member of the side impact bar and the double skin foam filled section adds considerable rigidity to the floorpan - not as good as honeycomb but much lighter. The net effect is that I am much more comfortable in the car and feel much more connected. Even the aeroscreen actually works now! hope this helps Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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