Paulo Posted September 1, 2006 Share Posted September 1, 2006 ERRR does anybody know how the Oil Cooling on a Caterham dry sump system can be improved ? It has been sugested that the Caterham dry sump system is prone to cavitation at high revs, I wonder if there are any improvements that could be made to the standard dry sump system. Does the R500 have a different dry sump system to say that of a R400? I seem to recall that the R500 has a small Apollo tank, does it also have an oil cooler ? If this is the case where are they positioned ? Edited by - paulo on 1 Sep 2006 20:49:50 Edited by - paulo on 4 Sep 2006 16:25:04 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulo Posted September 1, 2006 Author Share Posted September 1, 2006 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulo Posted September 4, 2006 Author Share Posted September 4, 2006 Any ideas ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red SLR Posted September 4, 2006 Share Posted September 4, 2006 My SLR system has a Think 13 row oil cooler. Sits behind the rad with a kind of Z shape bit of ali that makes sure no hot air from the rad gets onto it and chanels cool air onto the cooler. Works very nicely, cant rememebr getting the oil above about 100c. LeMans 2006 photos here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulo Posted September 4, 2006 Author Share Posted September 4, 2006 Thanks Red, I get the general idea, what is the oil cooler attached to and where have you routed the hoses? Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petrolhead Posted September 4, 2006 Share Posted September 4, 2006 Std R500 has neither an oil cooler nor an apollo tank. Mine has never overheated - YET NE7Club Web Site R5 no 65 😬 Edited by - Petrolhead on 4 Sep 2006 18:27:56 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter T Posted September 4, 2006 Share Posted September 4, 2006 Mine never seems to get anywhere near hot. R500 Mango Madness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulo Posted September 4, 2006 Author Share Posted September 4, 2006 I'm a bit further south.......... I'm sure that I've seen photo's of R500 with a tiny Apollo, the oil cooler was hearsay, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martinray Posted September 4, 2006 Share Posted September 4, 2006 Quite a few R500s have both the small Apollo tank and an oil rad. My car came with oil rad as standard (Spring 2001) CC/Minister recommended the Apollo be added in Autumn 2001. Martin R500 MPR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Plato Posted September 4, 2006 Share Posted September 4, 2006 R500's had an upgrade pack which included an apollo tank and a oil cooler This was to overcome cavitation and high oil temps on track. I understand the piston pins / rod bearing were wearing as a result of cavitation . Dave here is C7 TOP South Wales AO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulo Posted September 4, 2006 Author Share Posted September 4, 2006 Martin,How/where is the oil cooler fitted ? I'm trying to work out how to get the oil cooler in, without compromising the water radiator. RedSLR's set up seems to be on the right track. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martinray Posted September 4, 2006 Share Posted September 4, 2006 I'll email you some photos in the next day or so Paulo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted September 4, 2006 Share Posted September 4, 2006 The mini-Apollo tank was engineered as a result of my intervention on R500owners.com. The real reason R500s were suffering in the early days was because the OE big-end bearing material was not up to the revs. The switch to Vandervell VP2 lead-indium bearings fixed this problem. There is no problem with the R500 dry sump system except perhaps the perverse insistence on running it sealed. It is well proven. Potentially a spark eroded steel pressure pump rotor from QED is a worthwhile upgrade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Plato Posted September 5, 2006 Share Posted September 5, 2006 Potentially a spark eroded steel pressure pump rotor from QED is a worthwhile upgrade but check its size before fitting, they are not very well machined - I've returned 2 of them here is C7 TOP South Wales AO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulo Posted September 5, 2006 Author Share Posted September 5, 2006 Martin, Thanks the photo's will be most welcome. Peter, If there isn't a real risk of cavitation, that just leaves the temperature problem to resolve. I see that your looking for sunshine, it's come back to France this week we're promised over 30° for the rest of the week. The extra 10° or so pose major problems for a Caterham cooling system designed before global warming was even thought of....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthonym Posted September 5, 2006 Share Posted September 5, 2006 My R500 has the same setup as RedSLR describes and an Apollo tank located to the left and above the oil cooler, viewed from driver's position. (I know all this because I fitted a new rad yesterday). Anthony Tempus Fugit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark w Posted September 5, 2006 Share Posted September 5, 2006 How hot does your oil get ? My R400 suffers from the oil being too cold if anything , are you sure that you are getting a correct reading ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthonym Posted September 5, 2006 Share Posted September 5, 2006 Can't remember, too many confused memories. I'll pay more attention next tme out. here Minister Power Customer Support/Engine Data Pages/Superlight R500 I just fitted a four row ally (water) rad in hopes of reducing temps generally. I have no idea if my sensors are ok, but the car works... so far Anthony Tempus Fugit Edited by - anthonym on 5 Sep 2006 17:50:19 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulo Posted September 5, 2006 Author Share Posted September 5, 2006 Antony, Thanks for the info, do you have the Z shaped bit of alloy? I presume that this runs from the bottom of the water rad to the top of the oil cooler, in such a way as to seperate the two air flows. I have also just fitted a big rad, I worry that even if I fit an oil cooler, the extra hot air created will be held under the bonnet, raising the under bonnet temperature and therefore raising the oil and water temperature. I've a second bonnet into which I've cut two cutouts, one for the throttle bodies and the second above but slightly behind the exhaust manifold, I'm hoping to create an airflow across the motor.I have yet to try this and with the luck I'm having at the moment, it'll fly off and hit me on the head the first time out ☹️ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthonym Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 sorry for not seeing this earlier! Yes I have the Z shaped bit of alloy - what it does is described somewhere here on blatchat (sorry I forget why, something to do with airflow, keeping already warmed air from the rad away from the oil cooler.. was it?) I just remember deciding it has a very good reason and maybe I'd better not remove it! If you are where I think you are, you are having much the same temperature challenges I am. The 4 row water rad has solved my water problems, not witrhstanding that the three row had a leak so it was challenged in any case. Water temp is now rock steady. Caterham and Minister give different advice about acceptable temperatures, minister's being lower. Frankly I cannot run the car to minister's oil temp limits and it's still going. I recall ringing someone from a French peage roadside traffic jam with both water and oil warning lights "on" - I was tol "oil to 120 is ok"... not been told it since though did see it written somewhere recently. I was about to read the "laminator" thread(s) to see if that is of oil cooling interest. What bothers me is that when I start a hill climb, which is an Alpine Mountain Climb that can go on many times longer than any British hill climb, the oil temperature never stabilises (whereas the water now does). When it's hot (25 - 40 deg) I use a much (what I call) tougher oil that is more resistant to breaking down in the heat (have to check, I think that's one starting with a zero, such as 0/W60) effing expensive and takes a while to warm up, but much feel good factor. Really I Never "let rip" because of the temperature fears I have, always (practically) in one gear higher than I would be otherwise, and when it's first, I'm there less long. Think I'll copy this to Minister to see if Graham has anything helpful to add. Anthony Faith Manages Buy a trailer, take the Seven... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slipper man Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 I have always found Graham to be very helpful. Some of the misinformation about temperature is due to differing sensor positioning. Modern oils are quite happy at 125 deg or so, but the place you measure the oil temp on the R500 dry sump gives the 'bulk' oil temp in the main tank. IIRC, Graham reckons 95-96deg bulk oil means in the engine you are seeing 120+ in the hot bits. Early R500's had a 9,000 rev limit. As Peter has said, the false initial economy of using standard bearings caused some blow ups, and they recalled them to fit proper race big ends. At the same time they also retricted revs to 8,600 RPM (which is where max power is developed) and reliability was improved enormously (unless, like me you decide to keep to 9,000 and discover that crank harmonics can cause them to snap at those speeds...) Graham has always been concerned about oil (and water) temperature though - he says you need to see the 'system' as a whole. At first they fitted the apollo tank (at the time saying that the extra oil capacity helped keep the oil temp down, though I am sure de - airing the oil was something they thought desirable), and upgraded the water cooling to the triple pass rad (mine came with the smaller item). My car has been fine except when driving in France in the Summer, when at Dijon for example I was seeing temperatures far too high. So I also fitted the oil cooler and it has stayed withing limits ever since. I presume the oil you are using is the Shell 0W/60. Graham is pretty insistant that Mobil 1 Motorsport 15W50 is the stuff to use. I don't know how much difference the '0' makes in summer temps, but I didn't feel it worth varying from his firm advice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthonym Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 Graham has telephone supported me all round Europe I thiink he's had a call from every mountain range to date. As have CC, Simon, Darren etc in fact I owe them a cd of vids.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthonym Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 in my travels it's often Hobson's choice where I am grateful just to get the grade and fully synthetic; having said that I'm in civilisation just now (Coimbra, Portugal) and looking to replenish my oil supplies so I'll find the stuff you mention (yes I seem to recall Graham saying that, now you mention it.) tvm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthonym Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 thanks for the most interesting oil post. I'm mailing myself with it for reference! My reason for the 0 spec oil was (back when) very high ambient temperatures (i.e. 25 - 40 deg) at high altitudes (1500m-2800m) granted (that) much higher up it tends to be cooler. And me being nervous about my oil breaking down due to being hammered to death. Takes much longer to warm up.. I'm going to learn a bit more about oil methinks. I wonder where my oil sensor is.. my car is not, it seems, entirely standard anymore, then again all the changes fit the talk of upgrades/corrections (Apollo tank, oil cooler etc) I much prefer this Autumnal blatting, much less scary as regards oil temperatures. Anthony Faith Manages Buy a trailer, take the Seven... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthonym Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 p.s. most of my time is spent (sometimes well) South of Dijon. Anthony Faith Manages Buy a trailer, take the Seven... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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