Blackbird (& other BEC) Owners - Is My Gearbox on its Way Out?

[Krismuss]

Or is it just me?

 

Just retruned from a vary short blat (first since last Oct) on the way back from its MOT and really struggled with down changes from 6th through to 3rd (poss) at high revs.

 

Fine on the way up through the gears though going back down from high revs & braking was pants, many a gear missed, resulting in the 'bag of spanners' clunking sound until a good whack eventually got there!

 

Is this the first signs of gearbox on its way out (or clutch perhaps) or just my usual getting used to driving the car again after 6 months 'off'?

 

Thanks

 

Chris

[Atinod]

Hi Chris,

Have you checked the gear linkage? Not sure what system you have, but when I had a push/pull cable [where the outer sheath had separated from the end fixing], the result was a bad up change. Even if it is a linkage system, I'd check that adjustment first.

Good luck.

James

[BYKer Will]

doomed I suspect Kris but worth checking the clutch and linkage and remembering to change down hard and fast with no revs rather than trying to slip it in gently so to speak! 4th was always the worst on mine and once they start missing changes it just gets worse.

 

Having gome through it twice with mine I wouldn't hesitate to say bite the bullet and get some undercut gears from Nova. This should make it bullet proof for the future.

 

Graham at nova will probably fit them for you or if not neil has an excellent race builder round the corner who could do it if you give him the whole engine.

 

Might be worth having a quick refresh of valves, shells and rings etc whilst it is out.

 

Will

[Sheds Moderator]

Quoting BYKer Will: 

... remembering to change down hard and fast with no revs rather than trying to slip it in gently

 

[swiss Tony]

Changing gear in a BEC is like making love to a beautiful woman...you can take your time or you can just bang it in gear and get straight back on the throttle...

[/swiss Tony] 😬

[DSL]

I wouldn't pretend to know much about Blackbird gearboxes, but I wouldn't be sure your gearbox is done for just yet.

 

I had a similar problem at Mira a few years back with the Busa struggling on down shifts baulking & not going in. Cured it via removal & remounting of the clutch pivot point & clutch cable adjustment

 

 

[bluenose]

Chris

 

I think your car has the cable clutch modification like mine, how does your clutch pedal feel? I know it can be hard to tell as it is quite light anyway but it may be that it either needs adjusting or is just about to snap, just a guess but worth a look.

 

Nick

[Krismuss]

Cheers all,

 

Yes Nick, the clutch did feel particularly light today. It did the same thing last year after I probably did a few too many of the 0-60 runs at Dunsfold 😬

 

Chris

[BYKer Will]

Finger crossed for you Kris.

 

Will

[neilg]

Chris, you need to check the clutch actuation first old chap. Presume you have the same hydraulic affair that i have. If so undo the two bolts holding the actuater ( the black bit on the end of the braided hose) and pull it free of the engine. Now hold it above the level of the master cylinder and push the diaphagm in with your thumb ( once you've taken the lid off of the master cylinder) and this will expell any air that may have crept into the system. Top up the master cylinder to correct level.

If, once you have done that and you still have a recalcitrant action and all your gear linkages are A OK then you've probably got a problem with worn dogs. (If you've got some cable actuated jobby then i'm afraid i've no experience of them.)

 

Once all that is exhausted then there may be no alternative but to get engine out , split, and to investigate. Buggeration.

 

Both me and Will have had this problem with our Blackbirds and the only real proper long term solution is to fit a NOVA gearbox with undercut dogs.

This i'm afraid is expensive but then replacing the various worn bits with new Honda gears as standard is also expensive and you'll end up doing it again fairly soon.

 

My standard gearbox lasted for 10000 miles and probably 10-15 trackdays but Willy with his ham fisted downshifts buggered two up in about 4 miles. The Nova box with its undercut gears sorts all this out.

 

I have a tame engineer who can sort all this out for you if you decide it's beyond you. Blatmail me and i can advise.

 

Graham at Nova is here..Nova and Mark at BSD BSD is here. They are both within two miles of each other nr Peterborough on the A47 , i've used both and they are both brilliant.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Cheers Neil

 

[Krismuss]

Cheers Neil!

 

I kind of hope it was the clutch, I have the cabled version which all seemed fine on inspection with the excpetion of lots of slack/play. Further minor adjustment then a quick run out and now it's failing on both up and down shifts :(

 

The car's due in for a service with Andy Belcher week after next anyway so I'll see if he's keen on BEC engine work. The chances of me working on it are pretty remote at the moment (even if I had the ability), still at least I have no excuse to carry on working on the house this morning ☹️

 

If it the gearbox, roughly what cost was the nova set?

 

Cheers

 

Chris

[neilg]

Hi Chris, when you say failing, does it not go into gear or does it go in and then jump out. Generally what happens is that it starts jumping out of gear on upshift and then you can't get the next gear down on downshift, particularly fourth .

 

I'm afraid its quite a few quid mate. i was lucky in getting a second hand Nova box from Ming at half price but a new one is somewhere in the rather unpalitable area of £1200-00. Gulp. Give me a shout on blatmail and i can tell you all the ins and outs. You may consider getting a second hand standard box which will be a lot cheaper.

 

Anyway give me a shout if you like.

 

Cheers /Neil

[Nick Chan]

Chris,

 

As Neil says the Nova box is a pricey upgrade and I have the £1200 invoice in front of me! I'd adjust the clutch cable first. When I got my car, the gear change was very heavy and not slick at all but it didn't crunch so the previous owner thought was as it should be.

 

After a slight adjustment (winding the adjuster away from the pedal box to reduce the slack on the pedal), it has transformed the gearchange and its much lighter in use. If you had gearbox problems, I would be expecting it to jump out of gear as Neil suggests.

 

Nick

[neilg]

As Nick says you've got to exhaust this cable adjustment i think. You say it's fine but with lots of slack and free play *confused* . This seems an oxymoron. There should be no slack or freeplay at all i would have thought. On my hydraulic clutch any air in it at all and the gears won't go in and the clutch drags. The gear action itself should be very light. Don't go bashing it about and forcing it. It's a Honda, they like finesse and precision.

I think i'd get the rear wheels off the ground and test it through the range of gears.

 

As regards general use on the road and in the interests of gearbox longevity you should be doing ALL the braking with the brakes. Absolutely NO braking with the gearbox at all. This will shag it in no time flat. Best to lose all your speed with the brakes and once thats done just snick down the gears with your finger tips. No forcing it down with massive force with too much speed. You also MUST heel and toe so as to blip the throttle on downshifts with just a bit of clutch.

On the road i've found it best to use clutch ( just a dab) on all gearshifts but on track you can do clutchless upshifts but use clutch on way down.

 

Hope that isn't teaching you to suck eggs, sorry if this is all simple stuff but Honda gearboxes are expensive and tiresome to change as whole engine has to come out etc etc.

Cheers Neil

[Krismuss]

Cheers Neil & Nick,

 

Meant to say cable appeared fine in condition (in response to Nick - Bluenose's comment) not how it was adjusted 😳. Thanks for the tips too, most of my bikes (albeit many years ago) were Hondas too and the action of the box (engaging gears) does feel similar to my last bike albeit with the obvious hand/foot operation difference!

 

I looked at the Nova site and guessed £1200 + fitting from the basic cost listed, so if it came to that I'd have to decide whether best to spend the money on the gears or just by a used engine for much less?

 

I'm a bit more philosophical about it all today and guess I'm lucky to be in the position to keep a 'toy' car, even if I can't afford to get it back on the road just yet (assuming the worst).

 

Chris

[neilg]

Hi Chris, can't remember if your car is carbs or injected. I have a spare used carb engine if you need one which i bought when i got my car as a spare and never used. Well i've got two spare engines actually , one fully refreshed with good standard box, and the used one from a salvage yard. No use to you if you've got an injected engine, although the gearbox is the same . Anyway they are there if you need them.

I was beginning to think three engines is a bit of an extravagance. 😬 😬

You can pick up spare engines for £500-00 although you don't know necessarily the state of the gearbox but normally they are fine as Honda Blackbird riders tend to be portly old chaps more interested in real ale than clipping the next apex at Cadwell.

 

[Krismuss]

Cheers Neil, it's an injection model though.

 

I had a good chat with Matt Deakin today (runs a blackbird) and sounds like the Nova gear set is the ideal upgrade and I could take the engine to Mistral in Essex to get it looked at! However, that's going to be at muchas bucks.

 

The other alternative is an engine swap and I've found what looks to be a good 03 reg BB engine with 18k miles for sale (£900).

 

Andy Belcher will take the engine out for me (was due for a service in a couple of weeks anyway) then it's up to me whether to get the engine/box looked at by Mistral or hedge my bets and just swap the lump.

 

Either way the planned LSD replacement will have to go on hold this year ☹️

 

 

[neilg]

Hi Chris, the choice as they say is yours mate.

Mistral WILL be mega bucks, as Byker Will will tell you.

Mark at BSD will be considerably cheaper and believe me he knows his onions. It's just more difficult for you to get it there though i guess.

I'll keep my eye out for gearboxes for you.

Cheers Neil

[martin b]

Neil, I think Mistral saw Will turn up in his flash Range Rover

 

My bill for the same work was somewhat better (though still pricey ) 😳

 

Tip Of The Day...turn up in a van 😬

 

Martin

[BYKer Will]

Thanks for the reminder Martin

 

In truth I think my bill was more simply because I had managed to not only kill the dogs on fourth but also bend a couple of selector forks and damage the selector barrel probably by continuing to use the box at Snetterton when it was on its way out.

 

Once the dogs start to wear and it jumps out of gear it gets all confused and can damage the forks and then the barrel so best to get it fixed sooner rather than later.

 

The standard Honda parts are very pricey. I think all from memory you are looking £100 quid per gear and for the barrel pus 30 to 50 for the forks.

 

Again from memory my bill from Rob was around £700 and Martins not long before was around £500 excluding any removal charges.

 

Given the cost of a standard repair is around half the cost of a nova with the benefit of hindsight it is simply better economy to spend the extra and not have to do it all again in 12 months time like I did.

 

To put it into perspective though with a nova gear cluster you should have a pretty tough sequential box for less than £1500 which isn't that bad.

 

Will

 

PS the nova ratios are also meant to be better than standard

 

 

[neilg]

they are much better with a L-o-n-g first gear that'll do damn nr 60 mph and then 2-3-4-5-6 which are very close and quick with 3 dogs per gear rather than 5.

[robmar]

I have had nothing but excellent service from Mistral on my busa when I had oil problems last year ☹️

 

Rob

 

 

[Krismuss]

Had a good chat with Rob at Mistral today and will take my engine up to him soon.

 

He has a Blackbird 7 in with him at the moment (Andy Hill I think he said???).

 

He did suggest that if I were to go the Nova gear set route then a full set won't be available for 6-7 weeks as they're waiting for new sets to be made at Nova.

 

As a guide price for strip down & fit Nova circa £500 (+cost of Nova set).

 

Let's see what he finds, though I've kind of convinced myself to go for broke and go the Nova route.

 

(which means I'll need to keep BBird for a while yet 😬)

 

Chris

[BYKer Will]

In case it didn't come across from me before Rob is excellent.

 

I think Andy Hill is a mate of Matt, the chap who bought my blackbird. I think 3 of them have birds but are not active on here,

 

Will

 

 

[neilg]

Chris, you may want to consider getting Rob to change rings and shells whilst gearbox is in bits as engine all to bits anyway? I know this all adds up and you'll end up with a bill for £2000-00 for what is still a standard engine. Other alternative is just to source an engine off ebay for £600-00 and bang it straight in. The standard gearbox might be good for 10000 miles plus especially as you don't track it much.

I only say this as you don't seem to get another £1500-00 just because you have a Nova when you come to sell although it's bound to help. Just my opinion . If you're not planning to track it much then i think that may be a more economic bet.

Cheers Neil