R500 Dash - Button operation information

[jchasey]

Am currently planning a total reworking of the dash on my car - started as standard Sigma Roadsport layout with extinguisher & start button (its primarily a race car, but still road legal).

 

The current iteration has a Race Technology DASH3 mounted in the dash to the left of the tacho, and since I'm aeroscreened I've removed windscreen heater/wiper controls etc. (Also have DL1 data logger installed)

 

As part of an engine upgrade I'm moving to an Emerald ECU from the standard MBE, and since the tacho operation on the sigma is tied to the ECU I've decided to make the jump to the DASH2 display. (Its like the Stack display but all digital and can display lap time logs etc from the DL1)

 

Phase 1 will use the existing (much holed) dash to get the operation going and to experiment with the layout and I have a CF blank dash in the garage ready to go once the design is finalised and tested.

 

Really like the design of the R500 dash, particularly the alumnium buttons, the original supplier is APEM and its their A1 range - they can configure the buttons pretty much anyway you like, but thats the point I'm at - working out exactly what I need...so have some questions that hopefully a R500 owner will be able to answer.

 

On the R500 dash there only appears to be two headlight buttons, on the right of the dash. But shouldn't there be 3? i.e. side lights on, dipped on, full beam on? So is one of the buttons a 3 position rather than 2? Or are they straight latch on/off and another button affects the lights somehow?

 

Will probably have more questions as I work through the design...

 

John

 

p.s. Will be selling my DASH3 and will have a bunch of Sigma dials redundant in the coming weeks, BM me if you are interested.

[Mr Locust]

As part of an engine upgrade I'm moving to an Emerald ECU from the standard MBE, and since the tacho operation on the sigma is tied to the ECU

 

A couple of things to consider;

 

1. Why ditch an already installed programmable ECU to then replace it with another programmable ECU?

2. If you go to an Emerald ECU then it too has a tacho driver.

[skydragon]

I've just carried out a similar upgrade on my car.

Have a look at this page here and scroll down to see the dash photo

 

Couple of points

 

1. If you mount the DASH2 on the CC dashboard at the normal instument angle, you will not be able to see the DASH2 screen correctly. The DASH2 viewing angle is 20deg above the parallel with the LCD panel. This makes a massive diffetence to the display contrast/readability. You,ll see from the photo that I have mounted the DASH2 into the carbon dash, to get the correct angle. This takes a bit of fiddling and making a box section using CF sheet, but the end result is worth it.

 

2. I ended up buying new CC switches and not using the R500 style switches. You need additional relays etc to makes it all work with R500 switches (they are not a straight swap with the old wiring) and i kind of prefer the standard switches anyway.

 

3. Make sure you ue a dremel cutter and wear a mask and goggles when cutting the CF dash...it's not nice stuff when working on it.

 

4. Measure twice...cut once!

 

5. I've retained fire extingisher pull as you can see in photo.

 

 

[jchasey]

engine builder prefers to use Emerald, plus I prefer the idea of having full access to the ECU - the standard MBE one supplied by Caterham being of course locked.

 

Tacho driver is not the issue - there is additional loom circuitry in the tacho on the Sigma. For instance the fuel gauges were not reading correctly on early Sigmas. The fix to this from Caterham was a replacement tacho. Also know someone who has had an engine upgrade on their Sigma Caterham with an Omex ECU - they have ended up with a replacement tacho plus the old tacho under the dash to ensure the loom still all works as required. My approach will be to get rid of the majority of the old loom...

(There may be an approach that means you keep the original tacho, but since I want the lap-timing display of the DASH2 etc anyway have decided this will be the best option for me).

 

[jchasey]

Just read your other thread skydragon - some great info there.

 

Do you remember what area size carbon fibre sheet you needed for the DASH2 box? Don't suppose you have any dimensions still ?

 

Thanks

 

John

[skydragon]

I bought a A4 sheet of carbon from carbonmods website page here

 

In terms of the cutout for the DASH2 I can't give you any specific dimensions. What I can say as a guide is what I did - Using the steering column as the central vertical line reference of the installation. Using a dremel wheel cutter, I cut a cutout from the CF dash - to the exact _widthof the DASH2 body accross horizontally just above the steering column - and to a _height of approx 70% of the height of the DASH2. This then meant I could stand the DASH2 vertically upright on top of the steering column (behind the CF dash) (ie. the CF dash is at an approx 30 deg angle. You want the DASH 2 to stand vertically upright to get the best viewing angle). If it can't stand upright ok, then just cut the hole a little larger vertically.

 

Then - Remove the DASH2 and using the CF sheet, I made a bottom and sides to the CF 'box' to enclose the front of the DASH2 in, gluing it together carefully with CA (superglue). The bottom of the box rests on the steering column and is glued to the steering column with clear siliscon sealant behind the CF dash and the sides form fillets, so you don't have air gaps either side of the DASH2. When all finished and after a few test fittings, I then mounted the DASH2 in the CF box and secured it in place with lots of clear silicon sealant behind the DASH2.

 

It took a few hours to get right, but it's not as difficult as it sounds.

 

Edited by - skydragon on 13 Mar 2011 14:57:18

[The Pikey]

John

 

I have just done a R500 style dash in my 7. The buttons are momentary so for the lights you press it once for sides, press it again for dipped and press and hold for longer than 1 second and they turn off. The high beam is on another switch. The fog, heater, heated screen, hazards and indicators also work with momentary switches. To acheve this I had a guy make a module and he is putting it into production soon. Take a look at my build thread for some pics. here

 

Jason

[jchasey]

I think the switches themselves are rated to work without the need for relays etc (in latch mode), but can see that if they are used as momentary then you of course need the extra electronics...

 

Will have to think on that, or whether to use a third headlight switch (there is a 3rd button design available from APEM).

 

The other button that appears to be missing on the R500 is the brake fluid warning/tester switch - is that handled in the stack unit?

 

John

[The Pikey]

John

 

you could use three switches I guess but you would have to wire it so that when the dipped beam goes off when you press the main beam. Shouldn't be too difficult to do as the 6 pin switch blocks have N/O and N/C contacts. I doubt you would get a neat looking R500 style dash without using momentary, how would you do the indicators and hazards for instance?

 

Although the switches are rated at 10amp I'd prefer not to run the dipped/main off the switch because they would be running right on the limit.

 

According to the guy at Trilogy, the R500 switches were designed by his brother and they distribute them world wide and are branded as Savage, may have been B.S though. I think Linds stocks them now too.

 

Jason

 

 

Edited by - Jason Fletcher on 14 Mar 2011 09:47:14

[jchasey]

On checking the switches from APEM are only rated for 6A ! Relays definitely needed in that case.

 

On considering this further I was wondering about using LED bulbs instead to reduce the power draw and therefore switch rating required. Will need to look at what the total power difference is. (Already have LED lights for fog light and rears)

 

Plan for indicator switches was to put two buttons on the steering wheel like the R500 rather than on the dash itself. (As I understand it since the indicators go via a relay already - the flasher unit - these should be fine)

 

John

[The Pikey]

John

 

I've been through this and I really could not see how to get the indicators to work from two switches so when one is switched on the other won't come on if pressed and of course the indicators need to work in conjunction with a Hazzard switch. I have my indicator switches on the dash which match the Stack switches but have the tell tale green led in them. really easy to use and looks the part too

 

What you could consider is one of these It's going to be a few weeks until he can supply though.

 

Jason

[MartinH]

Chaps - the new style dash with Savage switches uses this board from Caterham to control the dash switches.

 

http://www.caterhamparts.co.uk/product.php?id_product=3751

 

A bit pricey but it will get you to were you want to go I think with regards to indicators and momentary switches doing things like multi-headlight positions and windscreen wiper speeds etc.

 

HTH

 

Martin

[The Pikey]

Martin

 

looked into this and unfortunatly the board is only a fraction of what's required. the board is designed to run with the new electronic dials or stack and theres a new loom, two sub looms required. It all comes to about £1250 inc switches for the stack version. I think mine came to £400 inc switches. If one relay packs up on the CC part then you have a 200 quid bill because it's a potted PCB. I used standard 30A relays on mine so it's 2 quid and 30 seconds for the same repair.

 

Jason

[jchasey]

Thanks Jason, will definitely consider that.

 

I'm going to experiment in the meantime with the indicator setup, in no huge rush to get this done. My steering wheel is removable too, so it will be complicated by the need to have wiring connector that can detach easily.

 

Also finally understood why there is a micro-switch on the handbrake that is not connected to anything. (I had removed mine when I installed). On the caterham there is the specific brake fluid level indicator and the switch to test it (required for MOT).

 

On the stack and DASH2 displays there is a fluid indicator that can be wired up - but of course you need some way of testing the indicator is working for the MOT. Hence the micro-switch on the handbrake - when the handbrake is on, it also lights up the brake fluid warning light to show it works. So will rewire this into the system and that's one less button required.

 

Since I don't have a windscreen my dash button requirement is now:

 

Hazards, Indicators (on steering wheel)

Side lights, dipped, full beam, fog/rain light (meets both race & MOT requirements)

Ignition switch, Start button, horn

 

[jchasey]

Ordered a single Savage motorsport button for trial fit/testing, and turns out its an APEM! So not quite sure how Savage claim it to be 10A but the APEM datasheet says 6A...

[The Pikey]

John

 

I wonder if they are counting the total switching capacity because there is actually two separate switches on that block you have and they could be linked together easily. I know that should add up to 12A but maybe they are just playing safe.

 

Jason

[andy_h]

John,

have a word with Chris Norman from ReHab as he and a couple of others have indicates (possible more) buttons on a removable wheel, wired via plug and curly wire.

 

 

[jchasey]

Yes I think I saw one of those setups at a Rehab meeting last year - partly gave me the idea originally I must admit.

 

Planning to use a stereo audio jack on the end of curly wire, then if you forget to unplug and take of the wheel it will pop out without doing any damage. Have the buttons for the indicators now, will do a test later today.

 

Trial fitted the aluminium horn button yesterday - its a direct swap in replacement for the big black horn button/red starter button size. Useful if anyone wanted to just upgrade those buttons on their car.