Head gasket failed?

[Griff]

I need some advice. I'm steadily losing a small amount of coolant which I can't trace to any significant leak. Over time I have to top up the coolant and this is now an ongoing process every week or two depending on journey length. I know when it's time as the usual mid-70s temp starts to rise to mid-80s or even into the 90s. Refilling when cold I can get a litre plus into the system.

 

There's only a possible micro-pinprick leak at the water rail to head joint which doesn't seem to get worse even with the cooling system pressurised, so I don't think that's the culprit.

 

The car has also developed a misfire on start-up on one cylinder which quickly clears quickly (though it did take 30 seconds or so yesterday). It's like a fouled plug, except the plugs have recently been changed. The old plug from #2 cylinder did look a bit "corroded" rather than the usual mid-grey of the other plugs and this is also the cylinder which fails on start-up (can tell by the cold manifold pipe). There's no water in the oil so far as I can see, or vice versa, but on cooler days there has been steam venting from the catch tanks which I was told was usual condensation from the breather system and nothing to worry about.

 

I know the K-series can be prone to head gasket problems but it's not afflicted me before so I'm a little in the dark. Given the symptoms I'm concerned there could be a leak between the cylinder and the water jacket, that maybe when the engine is turned off the cooling system pressure is forcing water into #2 cylinder and affecting the spark. Unfortunately the plug should be wet, but when removed it isn't.

 

Before ripping things apart I want to eliminate other possibilities - any suggestions? It's a 2003 Roadsport "A" car with usual dry sump, wasted spark ignition etc. If the considered opinion is head gasket failure, is this a straigtforward job for a competent home mechanic or best left to specialists? And which is the best guide on procedure, torques etc? Apart from a cam locking tool, torque wrench and other usual tools, anything else I'll need?

 

Cheers,

Mike

 

 

[Ray Pearce]

I had almost identical symptoms - losing a small amount of coolant and misfires when starting. Turned out to be a leak in the inlet manifold gasket where the outlet to the header tank comes through - but I think it was leaking into the inlet port of #1 cylinder.

[Griff]

Thanks Ray That's an interesting (and cheaper) possibility I hadn't considered yet. I have the single 54mm throttle body - any idea if this is on a heated manifold? I don't recall but can't check till I get home.

 

 

[oilyhands]

If you have the ally manifold then a manifold leak is less likely though not impossible. The misfire is water on the plug.

 

Before starting take out the plugs and crank the engine, see which cylinder chucks out water or see which plug is wet with water on removal.

 

If it is 1 or 4 then it could be the manifold, if it is 2 or 3 then I would suspect HGF.

 

Oily

[Griff]

Hmmm...doesn't look great. No water spouts but No.2 piston definitely has a damp look about it compared to the others, plug is also running cooler. Seems like the dreaded HGF.

 

Checking the archives, there seems to be a lot of debate about causes of HGF and various remedies, including liner heights and various types of head gaskets. I found this article from MGOC which makes interesting reading and extols the virtues of the new (2005) Freelander gasket which Land Rover introduced, apparently good for all capacity K-series engines, in conjunction with a modified lower rail.

 

So I was wondering:

 

A) What is current advice on head gasket type - Payen, Land Rover, other?

B) Would the LR modified lower rail be needed on a 2003 engine? And would it fit a dry sumped car?

C) How do you accurately measure the liner heights?

D) Should the long through bolts be routinely replaced along with the HG?

E) Anything else I should look out for? Or change (obviously cam belt) whilst the head is off?

 

It's a 2003 car on about 8000 miles and I thought the HG "bug" had been mostly ironed out by then. Am I just unlucky or is this still a common problem with newer cars?

 

Now going off to sulk with a large glass of something strong... 🙆🏻

 

 

[oilyhands]

A) If your liner heights aren't perfect use the Payen BW750 gasket (elastomer type), if they are perfect you can use the Payen BW5750 gasket (multi layer steel) or the BW750, bear in mind the MLS gasket has a shim which lowers the CR a tad unless the head is skimmed.

B) You can use the later oil rail if you wish, I have not found it necessary and the concensus from the team that designed and implemented it is that it isnt really necessary, if you use it with a dry sump then the front right hand corner (as installed looking from the front) needs some fettling to clear the dry sump boss around the pickup hole.

C) Clean the liner tops with scotchbrite or similar and use a steel rule/short piece of round bar and a feeler gauge to assess liner heights.

D) If in doubt, replace the bolts, you could just check that the bolts thread all the way into the oil rail with only finger pressure to ensure the theads are not stretched. If the threads arent stretched and the bolts dont show sings of distress then they can be re-used.

E) Make sure you clamp the liners or they will move if the engine is turned, bear in mind the crank will be partly sized with no head on so it will be very stiff to turn.

 

Oily

[Griff]

Brilliant - thanks Oily *thumbup* Sounds like it's easier to use the Payen BW750 if that covers all eventualities.

 

 

[anthony1956]

my experience of "this": R500, had a leak that sounds like this

There's only a possible micro-pinprick leak at the water rail to head joint which doesn't seem to get worse even with the cooling system pressurised, so I don't think that's the culprit.

 

I was told as it heats up you don't see the extra loss because it is steam/vapour. Also the leak means the system is not pressurised as it should be and that is an important aspect of the cooling system. I've also read it doesn't need to be, but that's a design argument sfair, out of my league.

 

I was also losing water when the car was stationary for long periods. Ally three row radiator. I also reached the stage of adding water (coolant!) every day.

Later advice was that the water loss may be overheating parts around the cylinder head and basically damaging it. Told that as "leak down test" was the only real way to check things internally. Turned out this was a £50 job at CC. In the event had it done at Minister and then an engine refresh since the car was there and I was in the country - blew out my other plans completely, but there it is.

 

I replaced the radiator with a 4 row ally from Pace - cool as cucumber now.

 

Soon as new radiator was in place ALL my water and heating problems went away.

I still have the three row in the hope it can be repaired, one day.

 

Like you I feared all sorts after searching in here on head gasket failure. In the end it was replace leaky radiator (had to as I was overseas), get leak test done, take decision on engine work (again my circumstances of long distance travel created different decision process).

 

Sounds to me like fix the rad and get a Leak Down Test (a special meter), hireable I think.

 

About ally rad repairs: I have been told that if it's on a seam the rad is kaput and if it's not than it can be repaired (I think that's the right way round).

 

Hope this helps in some way.

Bit wary of adding anything to the wealth of knowledge in here.. so that's my 2p . :-)

 

Anthony

 

 

Edited by - anthonym on 8 Jul 2007 19:18:30

[Griff]

Thanks Anthony. I'm pretty sure it is the head gasket now. The pinprick leak really is that - probably a couple of drips a week. And despite the HG problems, the cooling system maintains good pressure even after some days standing. Apart from the damp No.2 piston, the real clincher is the emulsion passing off as oil in the sump!!

 

Won't get it fixed for World's Fastest Catherham next weekend, but hopefully before Oulton Park on the 24th assuming it's just a simple failure and no other head damage.

 

Cheers!

 

 

[anthony1956]

oil emulsion?! My condolences.

Sorry to hear that.

Anthony

[Griff]

Calling Oilyhands or anyone else who can answer this query....

 

The Payen BW750 is a head gasket only - what other gaskets in addition to manifolds and cam cover do I need to carry out this job, or should I get a full HG set (very costly)?

 

My local motor factors suggested the Payen BW5757 HG set but this clearly states "not for VVC" and I'm not sure what head I have on a 2003 Roadsport A car.

 

Thansk all..!!

 

 

[oilyhands]

A roadsport is just a stock K16 engine. The only difference is that it may have a VVC plenum. Dont buy a whole head set, you dont need it. FYI the main difference with a VVC head set is the inlet manifold gasket(s) (paper gaskets rather than Viton seals), the VVC mech. composite gaskets and a couple of 'O' rings for the VVC HDU actuator.

 

You will need an inlet manifold Viton seal or VVC inlet gasket depending on whether you have a plastic or aluminium plenum. You will need an exhaust manifold gasket and you may need a set of head bolts.

 

Definitely use the BW750 gasket, do not be swayed..

 

If you have trouble getting them I do keep them here but you would do better to get them locally if you can.

 

Oily

 

Edited by - oilyhands on 10 Jul 2007 10:10:30

[Griff]

A big thanks for the really fast reply. I'm off to Copenhagen in a few minutes, not back till late Friday, so this is my last chance to buy the gasket(s) before the weekend when I want to do the job! At least if I get the HG now I can get anything else to complete the simpler parts of the job next week.

 

Cheers *thumbup*

 

 

[Griff]

Oily,

 

My local factors blew me out. The BW750 HG they had yesterday is now sold, they didn't have any manifold or cam cover gaskets either. I'm on my travels now and no chance of collecting anything before Saturday. Can you provide me with what I need? Blatmail me with your contact number and I'll call you later to organise payment, delivery address etc.

 

Thanks,

Mike